"Don't stop white people" and "Police to raid in socks"

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If they hadn't screwed up on deployment, they would have killed tens of thousands.
Absolutely right. Nobody even knew about the anthrax attack until years later. Luckily for the people of Tokyo they had accidentally used a non-toxic strain of the bacteria they had bought from a lab supply company.

Statistical profiling, as I suggested, is not assuming guilt. It's profiling the more probable. After all is said and done, it's the same thing as you quoted.
The profiling system you seem to be describing is just what the Carnival Booth algorithm defeats.
 
I realize that, and I'm sorry if I came across as picking on you specifically.
Thank you, that's kind of you. No sweat. Besides, you had know way of knowing that from what I typed.

I also fully understand what you are saying on profiling, and you're right. But the one thing that is also right is, searching in some form, for lack of a better term, is a deterrent and and at least makes it more difficult on them to some extent, what extent that is, I have no idea. I think you have to profile in one fashion or another if you are going to search though. This "every 5th one" stuff is for the birds. Heck, random would be better that that. Obviously, nothing's fool proof.

I'm heading to bed, brains beat, you all have at it. ;)
 
Carnival Booth algorithm
I know a way to beat the dreaded Carnival Booth algorithm!

Lets just check old white women in wheelchairs and raid VFW halls! We're bound to catch the next terrorist attack like that, because they'd never expect us to check those!
 
Kurush,

I'm also not trying to be obstinate but my point is that we don't have any evidence that, thus far anyway, they have the real capability to draw on non-Saudi/Pakistani assets effectively in the US. Nor, for that matter, that they have much capability left at ALL in the US.

The fact of the existence of variously-origined terrorist groups throughout the world does not necessarily mean that those groups have the logistic capability or intention to actually operate in conjunction with Al-Quaeda inside this country. And it is hardly like we aren't watching those on an intelligence level anyway, to see when such intentionality may become real action.

And I'm not saying dispense with truly random checks, though, given that the kind of point of access checks we're currently using are so porous I doubt we'd see much loss in effectiveness.

What I'm saying is that the Carnival model depends on the actual capability to utilize enough alternate assets to evade profiling. We just haven't seen, in practice, since 9/11 any such DOMESTIC capability from the group we are most concerned with.

Reality trumps statistical probability all the time and, as is, that's how I see this current situation. With profiling being a realistic adjunct to random searches, at the very least we may drive Al-Quaeda (in the US) outside their comfort zone of trained recruits. It isn't an "either/or" situation.

Any change of plan for a cell-based, insular, regionally focussed terrorist group, such as bringing in Chechens, ethnic Indonesians or Japanese Aum, heck, of the Bader-Meinhoff gang, is a point of vulnerability to exploit from an intelligence point of view.

I just don't feel, given what they've managed to pull off since 9/11, they have that kind of capability. they had a big splash and appear to have shot their wad on this side of the pond. Everything else has been bush league one-offs. Even in Europe, they had just one in Spain, one in London.

I've got more follow-up capability.
 
I'm also not trying to be obstinate but my point is that we don't have any evidence that, thus far anyway, they have the real capability to draw on non-Saudi/Pakistani assets effectively in the US.
Assets as in citizens? The American al-Qaeda members that I can remember are: Padilla, "Nuyorican"; Hamdi, Saudi-American; Lindh, spoiled brat. Seems like a pretty random group to me. Anyway I don't think it's likely they have substantial sleeper cells of any nationality in the US. If by assets you mean foreign cells that can get visas like the 9/11 hijackers did, I don't see any reason to believe that. If anything the SE Asian al-Qaeda camps are safer these days.
Nor, for that matter, that they have much capability left at ALL in the US.
I agree. Unlike in Europe, immigrants to the US tend to homogenize within a single generation, which makes forming a cell much harder... but see below.

What I'm saying is that the Carnival model depends on the actual capability to utilize enough alternate assets to evade profiling. We just haven't seen, in practice, since 9/11 any such DOMESTIC capability from the group we are most concerned with.
In the US I doubt al-Qaeda has any substantial domestic assets at all; Saudi, Pakistani or otherwise. But any assumption no matter how reasonable can be wrong, and the more assumptions you make the more likely that at least one of them is wrong. If we use a profiling system based on these assumptions, al-Qaeda can use the CB algorithm to determine which of our assumptions we're wrong about, and then use our profiling system against us.
 
I am (and have been) trying to argue that profiling is useless and counterproductive.

Not a panacea, but far from being "useless" and "counterproductive". Must be done with common sense -- many factors should go into your profile. Agree it is useless if done with limited parameters.
 
Not a panacea, but far from being "useless" and "counterproductive". Must be done with common sense -- many factors should go into your profile. Agree it is useless if done with limited parameters.
It is useless with any number of parameters. That's why I keep talking about the Carnival Booth algorithm. There's a simple explanation of it here. It is counterproductive because mostly the same people end up being profiled every time and it creates resentment.
 
Just because someone fits a religious or ethnic profile does not mean they are automatically guilty of any crime. Paying extra attention is fine. But to ignore everyone that doesn't fit a profile is kinda stupid, don't ya think? All a terrorist would have to do is get a copy of "The Profile" from TSA or any other LE agency, and now you have a blueprint of how to bypass security.
But they can't.

We have been (reliably?) informed right here, by no less than a TSA supervisor, that not only are the TSA screening regulations classified, they are SO classified that even the regulation stating that the regulations are classified is classified.

Anyone remember that rather Orwellian thread?

"We can confiscate anything we decide to, because the rules give us complete discretion."

"Can we see where it says that in the rules?"

"No, that's classified."

Groucho Marx would be proud.
 
If someone could provide us with examples of where statistical profiling has saved lives, I would appreciate it. I would prefer that all be screened equally, as random chance should not be a part of any defense strategy. That would be like having guards roll a die to see which side of the base they would patrol.

Better yet, put more emphasis on effective means of protecting the facilities. Passive chemical sensors in the planes, armored cockpit doors with armed flight crews, more effective screening technology, things like that. Wasting time and money having a guard frisk someone because of their race is stupid and offensive.

Want to do proper profiling? Fine. Search everyone, because the only profile a terrorist is going to follow is the one you don't expect.
 
Assets as in citizens? The American al-Qaeda members that I can remember are: Padilla, "Nuyorican"; Hamdi, Saudi-American; Lindh, spoiled brat. Seems like a pretty random group to me. Anyway I don't think it's likely they have substantial sleeper cells of any nationality in the US. If by assets you mean foreign cells that can get visas like the 9/11 hijackers did, I don't see any reason to believe that. If anything the SE Asian al-Qaeda camps are safer these days.

Padilla has not been charged with a crime. Not sure what his status is these days.

Hamdi was not charged with a crime. He's been released.

I find it kinda odd. With as many laws that are on the book as there are, why the heck couldn't they find any to charge Padilla or Hamdi with? Heck, Jim March had more charges brought against him than either of 'em.

Lindh renounced his citizenship. Hence, he's not an American. Hopefully he's still rotting in Gitmo. He doesn't wanna be an American, that's his business. Treat him no different than any other terrorist proven to be Taliban or al Qaeda.

Any other examples you'd like to cite? ;)
 
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