Double-stack 1911. Thoughts?

[Azrael256]

So, I picked up a Springfield double-stack GI model the other day. It was a bit on the pricey side, although most of the Springfields seem to be, and $15 for a 10-round magazine is a bit steep (coming from the $3 7-rounders), but I'm rather impressed with it. Everything but the magazine looks standard to me. I was able to field strip the single-stack and reassemble its parts on the double's frame with no problems. I haven't had a chance to take it for a test drive yet with finals coming up, but it does seem to cycle those snap caps just fine.

Anyway, any of you guys have any experience with them? I'm wondering what you guys think of them.

 

[Sry0fcr]

I can't get a comfortable grip on double stackers, so I haven't bothered to shoot one. I'm interested in hearing your range report.

 

[f4t9r]

double stackers are ok. I just like the feel of the single, its just what you like
enjoy it

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Get whatever grabs you. I personally prefer a single stack -- my carry gun is a Kimber Classic with Chip McCormic 8-round magazines.

Back during the "assault weapon ban" nonsense, I pointed out that with my Kimber and two 10-round mags in the pouch, I had 29 rounds on tap. Exactly the same number I would have had with a Paraordnance 14+1 and one spare mag.

 

[Azrael256]

I just like the feel of the single, its just what you like
enjoy it

That was my main consideration, actually. After examining the action, I realized that they had adapted the double-stack idea to the 1911 rather than adapting the 1911 to the double-stack. When I realized that they functioned the same way, the only consideration was grip comfort.

As with probably all gunnies, the standard 1911 holds a special place for me. When I first grabbed the double, it felt really funny to me, as it was obviously too fat in the grip. I realized that I had to hold it in a slightly different position, but that it was quite comfortable. I also discovered one great advantage. Either my thumb is short, or it's too fat, or my dexterity is poor, so I can't seem to flip the safety off the single 1911 while holding down the grip safety. When I do it in the get-it-ready-right-now motion, I end up having to reposition a little bit, which takes time. With this larger grip and longer safety, I don't have that problem. It feels really good in my hand, so I think it will shoot well.

 

[Moonclips]

Nothing wrong with double-stacks. I love this one:

 

[Vitamin G]

I want one.
I want a P-16. 16 rounds of .40 isn't really all that impressive nowadays...
But a $50 barrel conversion to 10mm IS impressive

I want one.
maybe two.

 

[wally]

IMHO double stack .45s are great range guns, but IMHO none are reliable enough for carry because the mags are sensitive to having the follower bind from dirt/fouling and the mag spring life can be rather short. In my experience the classic widebody .45 mag related failure is the nose-up jam (ride over feed) caused by the base of the cartridge not getting up into position in time. Any other issues have the same cause/fix as a normal 1911.

I've: Para P14, P13, & P10, Kimber BP, BP Pro, & BP Ultra Ten II, a Springfield P12 clone, and an Armscor P14 Clone. Did I mention I like them despite the mag hassles.

I've an Armscor P18 clone and it has no mag problems so I think the issue is the Para style mag (all widebodies other than perhaps STI/STV use the Para mag tube and thus seem to suffer the same problems) so a double stack 1911 in .40 S&W may be fine as the rounds will stack in the mag differently which may eliminate the follower binding problems.

--wally.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

IMHO double stack .45s are great range guns, but IMHO none are reliable enough for carry because the mags are sensitive to having the follower bind from dirt/fouling and the mag spring life can be rather short. In my experience the classic widebody .45 mag related failure is the nose-up jam (ride over feed) caused by the base of the cartridge not getting up into position in time. Any other issues have the same cause/fix as a normal 1911.

The double-column, single-feed magazine idea is not an unqualified success.

 

[wally]

The double-column, single-feed magazine idea is not an unqualified success.

Seems to be true for .45ACP 1911 style guns, but certainly not the case for 9mm or .40S&W guns. Other double stack .45s with lower mag capacities than Para don't seem to have the problems -- Taurus Millenium Pro, 24/7, & HK USP for example, but these pack fewer rounds in the space than the equivalent sized Para mags.

--wally.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Seems to be true for .45ACP 1911 style guns, but certainly not the case for 9mm or .40S&W guns. Other double stack .45s with lower mag capacities than Para don't seem to have the problems -- Taurus Millenium Pro, 24/7, & HK USP for example, but these pack fewer rounds in the space than the equivalent sized Para mags.

--wally.

There have been a lot of magazine complaints coming back from the Middle East.

 

[Moonclips]

...IMHO none are reliable enough for carry because the mags are sensitive to having the follower bind from dirt/fouling ........ so I think the issue is the Para style mag....

The Para OEM mags suck. Use Mecgars and change the springs to Wolff +10%.

 

[wally]

The Para OEM mags suck. Use Mecgars and change the springs to Wolff +10%.

That helps, but not for P13, P12, & P10 and you lose one round capacity in the P14.

Note the current Kimber BP mags are Mec-Gar Para mags with the mag catch cutout in a different location and I've need the +10% Wolf springs in these as well.

--wally.

 

[Azrael256]

all widebodies other than perhaps STI/STV use the Para mag tube

Ok, that raises an interesting question. I have been told that only Springfield and Para magazines (or those designed for them) will work in the Springfield. True?

 

[wally]

Ok, that raises an interesting question. I have been told that only Springfield and Para magazines (or those designed for them) will work in the Springfield. True?

Yes I buy Para P12 mags for my Springfield Micro. The Sprinefield OEM mags that came with it appeared to be ProMags and they have been much worse than the Para and Mec-Gar mags.

If yours is the 5" it should take P14 mags, but unless you need the extra round, I'd say get the 13-round Mec-Gars and order some Wolf springs -- I use Wolff extra power Para custom fit springs. These are designed for Para followers and extended tubes, but I find if I cut off the top half-turn that "clips" onto the Para follower the the Mec-Gar follower fits nicely and the combo generally works pretty well.

Para mags IMHO are very over priced. If they were more reliable I might not complain.

--wally.

 

[Azrael256]

So I take it to mean that the coupon from Springfield that lets me buy 10-rounders for $15 might not be the best investment? Maybe just range work with those.

 

[Morgan]

An HK USP is a 1911-like double stack, and a fine pistol.

Then there's the standard by which all widebody 1911s are judged:

 

[wally]

So I take it to mean that the coupon from Springfield that lets me buy 10-rounders for $15 might not be the best investment? Maybe just range work with those.

I'd pass unless they've changed suppliers on their widebody mags, unless the ones that came with the gun work flawlessly. The ProMag springs are tougher to replace unless Wolff has started making extra power for them, as I said the Para extra power springs work well in the Mec-Gars if you cut the top half turn so it lays in the follower.

--wally.

 

[Kevinch]

Not to change the thread or hijack it - but what are the single stack Paras like?

I want a 4¼" 1911 - a true Commander length - to fit between my 3" & 5" guns, and I'm really not into the wide bodies (personal taste, that's all). I know they have gone to a new, "non-standard" extractor design. How does it work, & how are the guns overall?

 

[HSMITH]

I've got a pile of P14 factory mags here. Way back, they were really solid right out of the box. Current production mags aren't, but they can be with a little tuning.

The new production mags I have only have a thousand to two thousand through each of them so the verdict may not be in. I did have to re-set the lips on one, but the mags are used in USPSA matches and get kicked/stomped/dropped constantly. My main P14 had one FTF in the last year, the magazine mentioned was responsible. Other than that it has been literally years since it bobbled.

I respect wally's experience, but I have extensive experience with them too and have not had the problems with the magazines once tuned in the 5" guns. The short guns are another story, and they suffer from all the same problems the short single stack guns do. Set-up and tuning of the shorter guns must be dead on or they just don't run well whether it is a double stack or not.

 

[wally]

Current production mags aren't, but they can be with a little tuning.

For $40-$70 each you shouldn't have to do anything but load them and use them!

P14 mags in 5" guns are the easiest to make work, my point is too many don't work out of the box.

You shoot 230gr or 200gr ammo? Lighter bullets also help.

You still using any of the original mag springs? What kind of life did you get form the factory springs?

I'd never has a problem with the 10 rounder that came with my P14 until last time out -- nose up jam on the second shot! I'd never trust them as a carry gun, YMMV, but great at the range.

--wally.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Watch the ads and you can buy a shipload of Chip McCormic 8-round mags at $15 apiece or less. And they work.

 

[wally]

Watch the ads and you can buy a shipload of Chip McCormic 8-round mags at $15 apiece or less. And they work.

Yes but there are 12 plates in our rack and a mag change really hurts your time, but not as much as does a jam

I've had good results with the CMC 8-rounders, but no shortage of folks here that don't like them.

--wally.

 

[HSMITH]

wally, I have original mags from the very early 90's that came out of the box working as well as a magazine can. A couple I had hard chromed and they have been loaded since about '91. Dumped a couple times a year and refilled with premium. Nothing has been done to them. I have a couple more from that time period that see all of the range duty and so on. A conservative guess would be 25K rounds through each one at least, several P14's have lived with me but the mags stay. I have not replaced a mag spring, a follower or anything else. A couple have gotten stepped on or something and needed tweaked over the years, but all parts are original. They run flawlessly. Ammo has been mostly full power 230, with quite a few 200 SWC mixed in.

The only mag springs I have replaced have been in magazines with extension bases. The factory springs flat will not work, nor will any other aftermarket spring that isn't longer than stock by at least 3/4" and stock weight or better. Wolf springs have been used in most of these, and they suck. They don't last. I am trying some IMSI now but time will tell. The Wolf extended +10 springs lasted less than one year, maybe 10K rounds per mag at most and I was very disappointed.

Current production mags had a few nose up jams for me right out of the box in a gun that runs absolutely 100%. The cause in all of mine were the feed lips releasing the round early. Closing down the feed lips just forward of the base of a seated round out to about halfway down a seated round is all it takes to get rid of it. Once the extractor has purchase on the rim the round should release, not a bit sooner. Those new production mags have been flawless since tuning the lips. Ooops, I forgot that one didn't want to drop free, but a little therapy had that one running just fine too.

I don't find tuning magazines to be a problem. They are the heart of a good gun, without them it won't run no matter what. We spend hundreds and even thousands on guns but balk at the cost of magazines and giving them a little tuning to ensure they run right. I figure if I spend a bit of money on a good gun and then modify it to suit me just right that I can't complain about making the magazines just right and spending a little money along the way.

I have a harder time picking on magazines for the shorter than 5" guns, those guns are a whole other story with their own list of potential problems.

 

[10-Ring]

I'm not a fan of the double stack 1911...had a P16 and I never warmed up to it. 1st, I just didn't like the caliberand then it just didn't feel right in my hands. 1911s are just supposed to be single stack!