SodaPop
member
Does the Dragunov have the same trigger as the AK?
Can it be on par with the M14?
Can it be on par with the M14?
Dragunov vs. M14 (as designated marksmen rifle)
- Thread starter SodaPop
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Triggers on Dragunov's are generally better than AKs. Those that aren't can easily be remedied.
For the DM role, I don't see why a Dragunov could not be close to the M1A. The M1A will probably have the edge on accuracy, and mag capacity(20 vs. 10).
For the DM role, I don't see why a Dragunov could not be close to the M1A. The M1A will probably have the edge on accuracy, and mag capacity(20 vs. 10).
Nightcrawler
Member
From a report from a Finnish sniper that CARRIES a Dragunov in service (that's been posted a couple times), with the right ammunition a Drag can be more accurate than your rack grade M14. The Drag was designed as a marksman's rifle, whereas the M14 is a standard infantry rifle. (There are, of course, accurized M14s out there.)
Now, either would probably work quite well in the DMR role, with the right optics and a skilled shooter pulling the trigger. The M14 has 20 round magazines instead of the Drag's 10 rounders, but in the DMR role this hardly matters.
Both have quick-detach, side-mounted scope mounts. Both are semiauto. Both are quite accurate, and both fire a full power rifle cartridge for which match ammunition is available.
7.62x54mmR and 7.62x51mm are very close in performance. The Russian round has a slight edge when it comes to using heavier bullets (200 grain factory loads are available) but both are well-suited to the DMR role.
Accuracy is important in the DMR role, but no more so than reliability. This is one area where the Dragunov reportedly excells; it's accurate and yet it's low-maintance.
The M14 is also a very reliable rifle. I've heard that reliablility drops and maintenance requirements go up as you increase the accuracy, but I have no experience in this area.
Now, either would probably work quite well in the DMR role, with the right optics and a skilled shooter pulling the trigger. The M14 has 20 round magazines instead of the Drag's 10 rounders, but in the DMR role this hardly matters.
Both have quick-detach, side-mounted scope mounts. Both are semiauto. Both are quite accurate, and both fire a full power rifle cartridge for which match ammunition is available.
7.62x54mmR and 7.62x51mm are very close in performance. The Russian round has a slight edge when it comes to using heavier bullets (200 grain factory loads are available) but both are well-suited to the DMR role.
Accuracy is important in the DMR role, but no more so than reliability. This is one area where the Dragunov reportedly excells; it's accurate and yet it's low-maintance.
The M14 is also a very reliable rifle. I've heard that reliablility drops and maintenance requirements go up as you increase the accuracy, but I have no experience in this area.
Balog
Member
I've heard that the Dragunov also allows a quicker follow-up shot than the M14. Can anyone confirm this from experience?
Also, how do they compare in terms of weight and length?
Also, how do they compare in terms of weight and length?
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Using my scoped scout squad (has a muzzle brake) from any position other than standing, I can get back on target and a followup shot going in about a second, perhaps less. In so doing, I accept that my group will open up from 1 inch to perhaps 3.
Dunno about the Dragunov, I've never fired one.
Dunno about the Dragunov, I've never fired one.
SodaPop
member
I've never fired a Dragunov but I'm familiar with the AK. Any other differences between the Drag and AK47?
I was wondering about the durability of scope mounting. I still hear a lot of griping about M14 mounts, and side mounts on AKs.
I was wondering about the durability of scope mounting. I still hear a lot of griping about M14 mounts, and side mounts on AKs.
Nightcrawler
Member
Very different gas system.
You can learn a lot about the SVD Dragunov from THIS PAGE over at World.Guns.Ru.
SodaPop
member
"SVD was designed not as a standart sniper rifle. In fact, main role of the SVD ir Soviet / Russian Army is to extend effective range of fire of every infantry squad up to 600 meters and to provide special fire support. SVD is a lightweight and quite accurate (for it's class) rifle, cabable of semi-auto fire. First request for new sniper rifle was issued in 1958. In 1963 SVD (Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova, or Dragunov Sniper Rifle) was accepted by Soviet Military. SVD can use any kind of standart 7.62x54R ammo, but primary round is specially developed for SVD sniper-grade cartridge with steel-core bullet. Every infantry squad in the Russian (Soviet) army had one man with SVD."
I find that to be very interesting.
How come the U.S. didn't do that ? Or did we?
I know we are now..................
I don't see anything about the different gas system?
I find that to be very interesting.
How come the U.S. didn't do that ? Or did we?
I know we are now..................
I don't see anything about the different gas system?
Nightcrawler
Member
That isn't mentioned in there. The SVD uses a long stroke gas system, and a completely different trigger setup. (The trigger group can drop out as a complete unit.)
We're doing the DMR thing now, sort of, but it's been more of a field expedient thing than a matter of doctrine. The official equipment list for your typical infantry squad doesn't often include a DMR of any sort. The Russians have been doing it since World War II. *shrug*
It was, is, and will remain a good idea, though, to have one guy in the squad that has a rifle with a good scope and a longer effective range than what the standard issue weapon has, especially when the standard issue is a 14.5" barreled carbine.
The M14 will work for this task, though the supply of M14s is somewhat limited. I think perhaps acquisition of new DMRs might be in order, but that's my opinion.
We're doing the DMR thing now, sort of, but it's been more of a field expedient thing than a matter of doctrine. The official equipment list for your typical infantry squad doesn't often include a DMR of any sort. The Russians have been doing it since World War II. *shrug*
It was, is, and will remain a good idea, though, to have one guy in the squad that has a rifle with a good scope and a longer effective range than what the standard issue weapon has, especially when the standard issue is a 14.5" barreled carbine.
The M14 will work for this task, though the supply of M14s is somewhat limited. I think perhaps acquisition of new DMRs might be in order, but that's my opinion.
Personally I have never fired an SVD. I have fired thousands of rounds through an M1A though. Having held both, I think the SVD is quite a bit more ergonomic; with optics mounted. Even a friends (m-21 I think?) Springfield, sniper type rifle feels a bit odd in my hands, when using optics. 
SodaPop
member
I agree.
I do have a 3-12x40 on my FAL, but I wouldn't want that setup for combat. I'd rather have a bolt action for Sniper work and an ACOG on my FAL.
The Dragunov concept seems pratical.
I like the 10rd thing, too.
Nightcrawler
Member
I think the FAL could work as a DMR. I'd want some mods, though.
-Scope. An ACOG 5x would work for DMR work. You want a lower-power scope with a wide objective.
-Heavier barrel. Nothing super-heavy like DSA's bull barrels, but something like a DSA Medium Contour would work.
-Redesigned handguards. The handguards should be redesigned to allow a sturdy bipod mount (you wouldn't want the bipod on the barrel) and a sling mount (you wouldn't want the sling on the barrel of a DMR either). You'd want the bipod to fold up flush, out of the way. It should be a very sturdy unit, also.
-Stock with cheek piece to help with cheek well.
-Cleaned up trigger. Reliability is more important than a match trigger, though. Must work with hard military primers.
-Flash suppressor, with a threaded barrel for mouting a suppressor.
The barrel needn't be too long. I think DSA's 19" Predator model would be pretty good at the task:
Also acceptable would be the standard medium contour rifle:
-Scope. An ACOG 5x would work for DMR work. You want a lower-power scope with a wide objective.
-Heavier barrel. Nothing super-heavy like DSA's bull barrels, but something like a DSA Medium Contour would work.
-Redesigned handguards. The handguards should be redesigned to allow a sturdy bipod mount (you wouldn't want the bipod on the barrel) and a sling mount (you wouldn't want the sling on the barrel of a DMR either). You'd want the bipod to fold up flush, out of the way. It should be a very sturdy unit, also.
-Stock with cheek piece to help with cheek well.
-Cleaned up trigger. Reliability is more important than a match trigger, though. Must work with hard military primers.
-Flash suppressor, with a threaded barrel for mouting a suppressor.
The barrel needn't be too long. I think DSA's 19" Predator model would be pretty good at the task:
Also acceptable would be the standard medium contour rifle:
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The M-14 is great as a battle rifle. As a prima-donna target or sniper rifle, she's a real princess and won't behave unless you treat her like one. It's reminiscent of the old scoped target guns of that some carried by some of Berdan's Sharpshooters. When they shot, they shot really well. But there were too many things that could and did go wrong in the field and they needed constant care and maintenance (high-maintenance).
If the Dragunov could deliver equal accuracy, I'd go Dragunov. You want the same gun and not want to worry whether it's going to be off for one reason or another.
If the Dragunov could deliver equal accuracy, I'd go Dragunov. You want the same gun and not want to worry whether it's going to be off for one reason or another.
SodaPop
member
I've taken several 5x scopes to the range and hated them. I have learned that anything more than 4x slows me down if I had to engage a target under 200yds quickly.
I'd zero the rifle at 300yds and want a 2x or 4x scope.
I'd zero the rifle at 300yds and want a 2x or 4x scope.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Ahem....isn't the role of the DM quite different from that of the sniper?
As I understand it, the two best marksmen in the squad get the DM rifles, and engage individual targets farther out than the grouped fire of the squad, but they don't go Carlos Hathcocking around in the bush.
So....which role are we talking about here?
Reason I bring it up is because the prima donna babying the M-14 needs for the long range sniper role may not be relevent to the DMR role. (After all, ya only need "minute of commie" )
As I understand it, the two best marksmen in the squad get the DM rifles, and engage individual targets farther out than the grouped fire of the squad, but they don't go Carlos Hathcocking around in the bush.
So....which role are we talking about here?
Reason I bring it up is because the prima donna babying the M-14 needs for the long range sniper role may not be relevent to the DMR role. (After all, ya only need "minute of commie"
)SodaPop
member
DM means (to me atleast) the guy that takes the 300+ shot without having to call in an air-strike.
Nightcrawler: one lil quibble;
450vGary: Unquestionably, as one who owned both guns (I sold the M1A as it offered not a whit of advantage (other than the arguable .308 v. .223 advantage) compared to my AR15 SP1) the Dragunov is a much better thought out design than the M1A, especially when the scope is considered. Dragunov was built for a scope, M14/1A it was added as an afterthought. I think the Drag would prove more trouble free, also as there is very little to go wrong with the design which is very robust. YMMV
This is exactly backwards. Dragunov uses a short stroke piston. AK.xx uses a long stroke piston. The short stroke piston has less reciprocating mass so the recovery from recoil is quote unquote better.
450vGary: Unquestionably, as one who owned both guns (I sold the M1A as it offered not a whit of advantage (other than the arguable .308 v. .223 advantage) compared to my AR15 SP1) the Dragunov is a much better thought out design than the M1A, especially when the scope is considered. Dragunov was built for a scope, M14/1A it was added as an afterthought. I think the Drag would prove more trouble free, also as there is very little to go wrong with the design which is very robust. YMMV
Nightcrawler
Member
My mistake. I was trying to remember how the two were different. I don't think the Drag's piston is attached to the bolt carrier group like the Kalashnikov's is.
SodaPop
member
All the Dragunovs I've seen at gun shops looked like trash.
What is the average price of these?
Who makes the good ones?
What is the average price of these?
Who makes the good ones?
Nightcrawler
Member
The Chinese ones have very crappy finishes, that flake badly.
The average price for a Drag runs about $1,000 and up. Reason being that they're banned from importation, even though with the flash hider and bayonet lug removed they're, confiuration wise, identical to the VEPR rifle, which is imported. (Thumbhole stock, 5 and 10 round mags only, etc.) The reason is that they're "military" weapons, or something.
The closest thing you can get is the Romanian PSL (SSG-97, ROMAK-3), which isn't really a Drag. It's a long-action Kalashnikov. You can get one of these for $700-900, depending on where you look. The mags are expensive, but are reportedly sturdy and don't wear out easily.
The best actual Dragunovs are probably the ones made by Izhmash in Russia. Though, due to legislative interferance, you can't simply order one of these.
Nightcrawler
Member
This is the Romak-3. Note the difference in the location of the magazine. The only change I'd make to it would be to adapt one of those ATI thumbhole-with-cheek-piece stocks to it, as I'm left handed and I'd find the stock, um...stock unusable. Thanks to Inter Ordnance for the picture!
The ATI example is longer, too.
Check it out:
Thanks to Dragunov.net for the second picture!
You know what I'd really like, though?
Zavasta M-76. Long-action Kalashnikov counter-sniper rifle in 8mm Mauser.
Thanks to THIS PAGE for the picture of the Zavasta.
Interesting on the Zastava. A few months back SOG/Pac west arms imported a few of those with ATF apporval (just like in the pic!!!!!) My friend, an FFL holder ordered one, got it and was estatic. We both pawed it over, very well made, much better than his Tiger carbine and in 8mm mauser. About two weeks later, he received a letter from Pac west stating that ATF had changed their minds and he must (under penalty of law) return the rifle, and would receive a full refund. He did,.....we never shot it.....end of very irratating story.
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