Dragunov question.

[KaceCoyote]

Why exactly is are all the Dragunovs around a grand or more? I know I for one would have two if somone (preferably American) started pumping .308 versions of these things out. No need to make them some match grade this or that, but a lightweight marksmen's rifle for backpacking would be delightful. Especially if it had nothing to do with the AR-15.


So anyone else interested in a Dragunov made in america or as was suggested by a buddy of mine, or does the rifle loose its entire charm if its made in the states?

 

[Silent-Snail]

I see ads in Shotgun News for the Romanian version and they are at about $650. And I REALLY WANT ONE! I perfer 7.62x54R myself. Love that bang

 

[JohnKSa]

The Romanian rifles are not Dragunovs. They are just a beefed up AK action--like the Saigas and VEPRs and with some different furniture and a longer barrel.

On the other hand, I've heard that they are very accurate.

 

[OEF_VET]

Nope, it's not quite a Drag, but it is accurate. Only problem is that it seems to have an extraction problem right now. One of these days, I'll actually get some time between work, school and life to get her back to the range and try to figure out what's causing the problem.

The reason true Drags are expensive? Because they're worth it (and the fact that there aren't many true Dragunovs in the country.)

 

[KaceCoyote]

Accurate, how accurate? Whats the difference in accuracy between the real Drag and something like a Romak 3?

 

[Nightcrawler]

See, our government has this agreement with the Russian government, that no "military style" long guns and no centerfire handguns get imported.

Izhmash makes a commerical version of the Dragunov, the Tigr, that was briefly imported.

Also, the '89 import ban (or some extension thereof) nixed the true SVD rifles, from Russia and China, so that was the end of those.

As has been said, the Romak-3 (PSL) is a long-action AK, ala the Vepr or .308 Saiga. These are allowed, where as SVD action rifles are not.

That's why the Vepr, a semiauto rifle, with a 10 round magazine, and a thumbhole stock, can be imported. But an SVD, a semiauto rifle, with a 10 round magazine, and a thumbhole stock, cannot be.

 

[telewinz]

Romaks and Dragunovs are on a par with accuracy. The ammo used is the key factor and match grade ammo (surplus) is hard to come by. Neither were intended to equal an M1A match rifle in performance, and with standard ball ammo 2" groups at 100 meters is to be expected. None the less, I haven't shot my NM M1A since I got my Romak3 over a year ago. The AK47 design and 30/06 performance is hard to beat!


http://www.dragunov.net/finn.html

quote:
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I am a special forces military sniper from Finland. One of our duty guns is the Russian Dragunov SVD, through which I have put several thousands of rounds. I must say as a sniper, I love this gun. Throughout most of Finland, engagement distances are moderate due to a low visibility caused by the thick forests and marshes which makes the SVD a perfect tool. The climate and terrain is sometimes quite harsh but the SVD is our choice because of the very low maintaining requirements, and above all its reliable...and that is mostly what it is all about in war. You need reliability to stay alive.
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quote:
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By the way, originally SVD stood for Semipolarnya Vintovka Dragunova, (NOT Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova), which means Semi-automatic Rifle Dragunov, indicating that the rifle was not meant to be a truly sniper' s weapon. It was designed to shoot accurate supportive fire beyond the range of the original AK-47 in the battlefield.
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On the ROMAK-3
I also own privately a Romanian military PSL made in 1994 and I wanted to bring out some opinions of my own into that seemingly never ending debate about SVD vs. PSL. Regarding accuracy: even though you can find the ROMAK-3 for about a fraction of the price of the genuine Russian SVD, you should buy it. Mine has a Russian military PSO-1 on it and 1PN58 with IR illuminator for night use. I have modified the grip a little and did a trigger job (easy because our service weapons are Sako and Kalashnikov assault rifles which have the same kind of action and trigger assembly).

Now both of these weapons are equally accurate!!! About 3/4 MOA groups constantly. PERIOD.

The world of difference is the ammo. Believe me we have tried it all, everything available. And what we use is the Lapua 7,62 x 53R with 148gr D- 47 bullet, which is the thicker version of the D-46 (also 148gr). It is boat-tail MATCH ammo for the old Mosin-Nagant and Finnish equivalents from the WWII- era.

I don't want you to think I'm biased because the ammo is Finnish too, its simply the most accurate for these weapons. A second choice is the Swedish Norma. The Russian silvertips to my knowledge (and our special forces sniper school's) were never intended to be accurate ammo for SVD and neither is it a match grade ammo for any 7,62 x 54R. Russians simply don't make match ammo for that caliber. It is just better quality normal ammo. (More consistent manufacturing tolerances, better powder and so on). It is somewhat accurate in SVD but not great. Russians have adopted those silvertips for their use because manufacturing match-grade ammo for the SVD would only give marginal results. Big country, big tolerances, you know. The tip is painted silver to recognize it from the other same caliber rounds, especially from WWII- era mass- production ammo.

When asked to clarify what "Silver tips" are:
I've been doing some research on your question about Russian Silvertips / 7N14. The following is not the "ultimate" truth about this yet, but to my understanding Russian silvertips are those civilian soft cast metal bullets with a little milder powder charge as I mentioned before. Those 7N14's you mentioned are probably new "Snaiperskaya" cartridges made especially for SVD, but there is no such 7N14 marking in the cartridge case, so I'm still working on this.

Anyway that new snaiperskaya is still not yet even boat-tail ammo, so the accuracy is more consistent, but generally over 1 MOA. The "thing" in those cartridges is the powder and charge, which in Russia is said to be "the most suitable used for the SVD", which is probably right, because itÕs ballistics are somewhat identical to Lapua and Norma, and it stabilizes the bullet properly. The lack in accuracy depends still on bullet construction. By the way Sako and Lapua have also manufactured 7,62 x 53R ammo in boxer cases for competition purposes and I happen to have about 100 of them. They are accurate!

Its hard to get a better recomendation that this!

 

[Logan5]

OEF_VET, I'm just dying to hear more about your para PSL. I ordered myself a full length and it ought to be in next week sometime, but the shorty version is just so... um... cute, I guess?
I only see that one distributor in Texas offering the para (military gun supply? can't recall right now). Anyone able to tell me more about the origin of that configuration?

 

[Onmilo]

Real genuine Godless Russian or Chinese Dragunovs are in the $4000.00 to $5000.00 dollar range with all accessories.
You can find Tiger SVD sporting variations for about $2000.00 and these are pretty good buys but the barrels are only 20", no flash suppressor, and only five shot magazines came with the guns but some are being sold with replacement ten shot magazines.
Most of the Tiger SVD feature a goofy thumbhole stock but Century did manage to import maybe 300 or so with standard Dragunov stocks, these bring a premium of $200.00 to $500.00 more money when sold.
Real Genuine Godless Dragunovs are fairly accurate to 600 meters.
While far better than a standard run of the mill AKM, the Romanian and Iraqui knock off clone guns aren't any good past maybe 300 meters.
Some will shoot better, most don't, and once the barrel gets good and hot, which the Romanian and Iraq guns will in relatively few shots, forget it!
You get what you pay for with the Dragunov rifles. The more money you spend, the better the rifle will shoot.
Frankly for five grand I can build an M14 sniper system that will outshoot all of them to 1000 meters and it will have a twenty shot magazine verses a five or ten shot bullet tin.
In other words, unless you can't live without a Dragunov rifle, save your cash and buy something better.
For what you get the Romanian rifles are priced about right.
True Godless Dragunovs are way overpriced and in the realm of collectable stuff.
Translation, only people with more money than sense buy them.
If real Godless Dragunovs came into the country and were sold for what sellers want for Tiger SVDs now, that would be acceptable.

 

[OEF_VET]

I haven't test fired my PSL for accuracy yet. The one trip to the range with it was slightly rushed, due to having to be at work soon. Also, all I had available at the time was a lot of Czech silvertip ammo and one box of S&B hunting ammo.

Initially, I wasn't hitting paper because the scope wasn't zeroed at all. I was also shooting from a standing position, which isn't going to yield the best groups with any gun. Those who did shoot it (myself, admar2, sheslinger, cslinger, BryanP, and Eric (a friend of the 'slingers), were all capable of keeping the rounds well within the insides of a 8" Shoot'N'C target at 50 yards.

The rifle will do better, I just have to find time to take it to the range and shoot it the right way. I also need to find some Match-grade 7.62x54R, whic isn't an easy chore around here.

Like I said before, the rifle did seem to be having an extraction problem. That may have been ammo related, I'm not sure yet.

It's definitly not a long-range sniper rifle though. It's good for a few hundred meters or so, but not much beyond that for point targets. If, God forbid, I had to actually slip into the role of sniper, that's what my 700P is for. The PSL fits nicely into my ever-growing AK collection however.

Frank

 

[wardog]

CDNN may still have pre-import ban Chinese NDM-86 Drag's in .308 for $1699 if anyone is interested. I've been tempted.

Tomac, where are you?

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

My ex is Romanian and I've spoken with her father (who was in the Romanian army back in the good old Ceaucescu days) who told me that the Romak's were designed to engage targets 'above' the soldiers with the Ak74's.

The guys with the Romak's were snipers -but not in the way that US guys with M21's are. American snipers are used to engage targets anywhere between 100 yards and 1000, while the Romanian methodolgy is that there are two grades of snipers - ones who operate with very long targets (like the US) who are likely prone and with a spotter, and those who are in support of normal infantry who engage targets anywhere between 100 yards and 500 yards.

THe Romak wasn't designed to compete with the M1A/M14/M21 but it was designed to be used to engage targets between 100-500 yards and being very mobile while doing this - as opposed to the less mobile longer range US-style snipers.

 

[BigG]

I love my TIGR. It has it all over the M1A which I have also owned. As the above poster said, "The godless russkie versions are worth it."

 

[cslinger]

There is a very distinct difference between the concept of a sniper and that of a designated marksman.

Like TGI said most of the Soviet built Drags/Romaks etc. were designed around the doctrine of the DM or mobile support of the shock troops.

A Marine Corps sniper with an M40 most certainly has a different job.

Funny though the M14/M1A is being used in the DM role much more frequently these days so it seems those old Godless Ruskies may have been on to something. Almost makes me forgive them for putting the gas tank out in the open on the T72......shakes head in confusion.

Chris