Draw Or Don't Draw?

[Jeff White]

LE is doing a lot of use of force training where the premise is; It was justified but was it necessary?

This is a concept the CCW/self defense crowd should look into. That’s probably not going to sit well with a lot of people in the community. Avoidance and de-escalation are concepts that a lot of people look at as cowardly. But they are almost always the best option.

In this situation I would wait until I felt there was no other option.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…I think its best to run through things like this in your head, and/or in practice, before you're faced with it for real. At least you will have a somewhat predetermined course of action in your head that you aren't just winging in the moment…"

AGREED. That is precisely why I will only intervene for a very tiny inner-circle of dear people in my life.

 

[Kleanbore]

CCW courses are *not* combat training

What is taught in CCW courses, and what is "combat training"?

 

[aaaaa]

Do not post on social media before, during or after until a judge declares you blameless.

Even then, one must be very cautious what they post.

 

[hdwhit]

The last thing I do is draw (if I draw I'm almost certain to shoot).

What I want to do is gain control of the situation.

If an armed citizen in that room draws and starts shooting (and the villain responds), the body count is likely to grow - perhaps significantly. Yeah, the armed citizen gets congratulated by the police for his heroism, but there's that civil suit for wrongful death waiting on the other side of the press conference.

Find out what the shooter's grievance really is. It may the key to unraveling the shooter's motivation - and it may save the lives of the other people in the room.

 

[Atavar]

What is taught in CCW courses, and what is "combat training"?

CCW courses teach you legalities. Combat training teaches you how to fight and live.

 

[Kleanbore]

Combat training teaches you how to fight and live.

I have never taken training about how to "fight". Defensive training I have taken has addreesed tactics, awareness, avoidance, movement, concealment, cover, drawing, shooting, weapon retention, and avoiding being shot.

Combat training is for the military.

I think the training spoken of by the OP would recommend not shooting during a robbery except in the rarest circumstance. That has been true in all of mine, including the CCW class.

 

[Atavar]

I have never taken training about how to "fight". Defensive training I have taken has addreesed tactics, awareness, avoidance, movement, concealment, cover, drawing, shooting, weapon retention, and avoiding being shot.

Combat training is for the military.

I think the training spoken of by the OP would recommend not shooting during a robbery except in the rarest circumstance. That has been true in all of mine, including the CCW class.

Did the training you took give you the chance to practice and receive feedback about the exercises or did you just talk about them?

 

[GEM]

The training that Kleanbore mentioned had strict scripts,safety officers/ monitors and AARs.

 

[film495]

no idea. my experience with high pressure situation where split decicions are made, is - it is a toss up on what you'll do even if you think you know in advance. it is good to be concerned with the notion that you may be throwing fuel on the fire and escalating. it s a judgement or instinct decision/call ... whatever happens you gotta live with it; hopefully.

 

[tactikel]

A concealed weapon’s sole purpose is
to get YOU home alive. This was told to me by a SWAT officer with 20+ Years experience. Your obligation is to you family. IF you see a chance to help others and are willing to risk it, proceed.
BTW he told me a civilian with a “gun” spotted by responding SWAT teams to a situation are in great danger of being mistaken for a shooter, and being eliminated.

 

[Kleanbore]

Tac, I think that is a good assessment. Thanks.

 

[wis bang]

Area pizza shop held up by by two brothers; mom and girlfriend case the place and are waiting in the car.
After announcing the robbery, one brother gets after a customer starting to pistol whip him when he pulls put his carry and shoots both brothers.
Mom and girlfriend now face homicide charges for being part of the situation and county DA says legal shoot and I doubt the LTCF gets a civil suit.
The brothers brought air soft weapons and started a gunfight.
Protect me and mine; that's why i carry.

 

[mljdeckard]

You have to read every situation.

It is entirely possible to see someone pointing a gun at someone, and not believe they will shoot. Whether or not you think you can wait and see is up to you. I do know that a lot of robbery is over $40 for the next score. If I am watching that guy, I will be hoping they look scared and non-serious, because I don't want to engage if I don't have to.

 

[Simple Shooter]

The trick for me is to remember:

1. My mission is to force a break in contact; no more. As a civilian, my mission is to force a break in contact. If I draw and you run, great! I do not carrying to fight crime or take bad guys into custody. I will draw and fire to protect life, but I will not draw to be the hero.

2. Risk Assessment. Every day I carry is a day of concentrated risk assessment. If I feel that clearing leather will create a greater risk to myself or others than it will prevent, then my gun is staying holstered. I must be able to determine very quickly and under stress if my actions are going to make a bad situation better or worse.

3. This ain't Bonanza. Just because the bad guys immediately fell over dead when one of the Cartwrights shot them doesn't make it so in the real world. Most people shot with a handgun are quite capable of shooting back, even if they have sustained what will prove to be a fatal wound(s). Yes, there are exceptions where a bad guy is instantly incapacitated. But handguns are, for the most part, miserable man stoppers. I assume that I and any bystanders will take fire if I draw on someone who is also armed and figure that into my response.

 

[The Night Rider]

But handguns are, for the most part, miserable man stoppers

JMO but you'd probably stop someone quicker hitting them across the bridge of their nose with a Glock than shooting them.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

It sounds like from the article that the robber was shot once in the chest. At least thats what I gathered.

I wonder if a volley of shots had been administered if the assailant would have been able to get off a shot at the cashier.

The old adage of "shoot until the thread is stopped".

 

[Hikingman]

In the far end of a convenience store, a scared robber with what looks like a real gun may take the cash out the door without further incident. Shooting a robber from the back of the store may not be a necessary move for you.

 

[luzyfuerza]

If the report below is accurate, the "a random shopper pulled his gun and shot the robber" narrative is wrong.

The defender who was carrying concealed appears to be one of two male family members who worked in the store.

Also the "clerk" who died was actually the store's owner.

Its no longer an account of a man "defending a random third person". Now its about a man who was "defending a loved one."

One thing is certain: once a fight starts, no matter how trained and prepared the participants, the outcome is NEVER certain.