Dual Citizenship and purchasing a handgun (FL)?

[GT]

Thanks Biker for the props.


Yes, the matter is complicated, but only up to a point.

I technically could say I have dual citizenship because I could still get a British passport by virtue of my English birth certificate. However that would make me a de facto liar because I swore an oath of allegiance to the USA. So I am American, not British.

We have covered the birth angle, where someone has, not dual nationality, but more accurately divided nationality, since two nations have claims on them but only when on each nation's soil. But that seems like a bit of a scam.
Or do people go around collecting citizenships? I guess you could consider yourself a US, Irish, UK and Israeli citizen all at the same time - but thinking doesn't make it so.

Perhaps, as a naturalized citizen who actively chose to renounce his country of birth, I am more sensitive to this than someone who was born in the USA and is American "by accident" (no disrespect to my fellow Americans). But if you are a citizen of a country that should mean something more than taking the fast lane at Heathrow, JFK or Tel Aviv. It should be a personal commitment to your way of life and your countrymen.
Maybe I am an idealist.

G

PS: There are ways to lose your US citizenship if you should desire to. I found this on an Immigration Attorney's website:
http://www.visalaw.com/02apr1/12apr102.html


Under the current scheme, there are seven acts that are considered expatriating and will result in the loss of citizenship. These are:

Being naturalized in a foreign country, upon the person’s own application made after reaching 18 years of age;
Making an oath or other declaration of allegiance to a foreign country or division thereof, again, after reaching 18 years of age;
Serving in the armed forces of a foreign country if those armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the US, or if the person serves as an officer;
Working for the government of a foreign country if the person also obtains nationality in that country, or if to work in such a position an oath or other declaration of allegiance is required;
Making a formal renunciation of US citizenship before a US consular officer or diplomat in a foreign country;
Making a formal written statement of renunciation during a state of war, if the Attorney General approves the renunciation as not contrary to US national defense; and
Committing an act of treason against the US, or attempting by force or the use of arms to overthrow the government of the US. Renunciation by this means can be accomplished only after a court has found the person guilty.

 

[c_yeager]

I didnt think that the US even recognized the concept of "dual citizenship".

I know that if your an American citizen your citizenship as far as another nation is concerned is irrelevent as it doesnt afford you any additional rights priviledges or resonsibilities in this country.

 

[Zedicus]

Dual US + Other Citizens in the US are Officaly Classed as US Citizens unless they give up thier US Citizenship.

Just check US Citizen, they don't want, and don't need to know anything more.

(Was Informed of this by the US Embassy in London)

 

[baranjhn]

You're right in asking why the question is there. The simplist answer is that they don't know the law. Immigration and naturalization law are about the most complex laws in the United States. BATF knows their laws, and Immigration (ICE, CIS, CBP) know their law. Again, if you are a United States citizen, that's all you are. If some other nation wants to confer citizenship to a person, that's their business, it has no bearing though.

Now as I understand it, you can not legally purchase a firearm unless you are a U.S. citizen. However, one exception may be an alien Lawfully admitted for Permament Residence (LPR), sometimes referred to as a green card holder. BUT, their country of citizenship is not the United States until they naturalize.

John

 

[Headless]

As mentioned previously, it is (comparatively) easy to become an Irish citizen, and it does not require swearing such a restrictive oath as becoming naturalized to the USA does.

Non-Irish nationals legally resident in Ireland may be eligible for citizenship through naturalization if they have been legally resident in the country for a total period of four years within an eight year period. Applicants must provide one year prior notification of their intention to apply and must show proof that they intend to reside in Ireland after naturalization.

My family lived in Ireland for 11 years, and after 7years in country we applied for citizenship; we were approved after almost 23 months. I reside in the US now (my parents moved back here for a divorce; divorce was illegal in Ireland at the time) and have for more than 10 years now. I was born in the USA so i am a US citizen. I never swore away my citizenship to the USA, and never took a naturalization oath to gain US citizenship so never swore away my Irish citizenship either.

 

[pharmer]

I am amazed you have a Sports Authority that still sells handguns. Florida is very gun friendly but SA around here doesn't even sell long guns anymore. Joe

 

[Zedicus]

The Sports Authority in Boise Still Sells guns

 

[Headless]

I actually spoke with the guy at the counter for almost an hour; he seemed fairly intelligent. We were talking about wal-mart I mentioned that I had heard they were not going to carry guns anymore. The guy at the counter said that actually, almost all Sports Authority's no longer sell guns either, and that even this one locally would not be selling them in a year or so - they are planning to phase out handguns first and eventually stop even selling long guns. Incidentally, he also mentioned later in the conversation while speaking about other things that the margins on many of these guns are really not that high...this combined with the finicky paperwork (he said one guy had to redo it SEVEN TIMES) alone would probably account for them stopping selling guns, but then they have the entire liability thing to deal with too.

He told me a story about a couple who came in looking for a pair of handguns..the man was looking at a .40 calibre glock and the woman at a 9mm beretta. She was muzzle sweeping the clerk with her finger on the trigger and the man made a remark along the lines of "now, i keep saying not to point guns at me and now you're doing it to HIM!".... the woman actually put the gun to her husbands head and said "don't tell me what to do"... clerk snatched both guns and kicked them out.
I can see why Sports Authority doesn't wanna mess with it anymore.

 

[joab]

Is anyone here familiar with how my dual citizenship will effect my approval?

Shouldn't effect it either way, as long as you are living in this country legally with either an alien registration number or Social Security number

My wife is a legal non citizen and I am told that she is able to purchase a gun if she chooses

 

[Seminole]

You're right in asking why the question is there. The simplist answer is that they don't know the law. Immigration and naturalization law are about the most complex laws in the United States. BATF knows their laws, and Immigration (ICE, CIS, CBP) know their law. Again, if you are a United States citizen, that's all you are. If some other nation wants to confer citizenship to a person, that's their business, it has no bearing though.

Now as I understand it, you can not legally purchase a firearm unless you are a U.S. citizen. However, one exception may be an alien Lawfully admitted for Permament Residence (LPR), sometimes referred to as a green card holder. BUT, their country of citizenship is not the United States until they naturalize.

+1

The only explanation is that the BATF does not understand the U.S. law on citizenship.

Fact: The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship. You either are or are not a U.S. citizen and U.S. citizenship is held to be exclusive of other citizenships.

Fact: Some countries do recognize dual citizenship. Their laws permit you to be a citizen of their country and of another. Thus, according to their laws, once you are a citizen of their country (for whatever reason--birth, naturalization, adoption, etc) you may also be a citizen of the U.S.

Fact: Some countries do not recognize renunciation of citizenship in their country.

A logical response to question #14 is therefore impossible for some people. For example: My brother is and has always been a U.S. citizen, born to U.S. citizens in a Latin American country. That country recognizes dual citizenship and makes no provision for renunciation of its citizenship. According to the U.S. government, my brother had to affirm his U.S. citizenship at the age of 18 in order to retain it. He did so. The U.S. assumes that this is the same as renunciation of his citizenship in the other country. In fact, there is no way under the laws of the other country for him to renounce his citizenship in that country, so he cannot have done so. It continues to regard him as a citizen. He is in the same situation as Headless.

According to the laws of the other countries, both Headless and my brother are citizens of those countries, a fact which does not exclude U.S. citizenship. According to U.S. law, they are U.S. citizens, which is defined legally as exclusive of other citizenships. This makes question 14 completely and utterly nonsensical under U.S. law since it assumes that a person can accomplish the legally impossible. According to the other countries, they have dual citizenship (the legal impossibility in the U.S).

It would therefore seem that question 14 gives more weight to foreign law than to U.S. law.

 

[tyme]

I wonder, if you claim dual U.S./Martian citizenship, whether they'd delay or deny the transfer. Since there's no authority that controls Martian citizenship, is it a lie to claim to be a Martian citizen?

What about imaginary places? Can I claim to be a citizen of "The Matrix" or "Middle Earth"?

 

[hksw]

Immigration and nationality laws of the United States do not recognize "dual citizenship". Either you are a United States citizen or you are not. It's that simple. Black and white.

baranjhn is basically right; all this talk of dual citizenship is more or less bogus.

This is especially so when you become a citizen of the US.

So when someone who has been naturalized a citizen of the USA and says he has "dual citizenship" (cf. Schwartzenegger) he is a liar.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another.

If an American citizen were to take up citizenship in another country, must he/she give up his or her U.S. citizenship? If not, what are the conditions? What about dual citizenship?

If one takes up citizenship in another country, then the U.S. will consider that person to no longer be a citizen. Incidentally, the same is not necessarily true the other way around. If a person of another country becomes a U.S. citizen then, depending upon the laws of the home country, that country may still consider her/him to be a citizen.

There are situations where the U.S. may recognize dual citizenship. For example, a person may have acquired U.S. citizenship through a parent and still be a citizen of another country. The dual citizenship situations generally pertain to citizenship-by-birth, not when the U.S. citizen naturalizes in another country.

http://www.uscitizenship.info/uscitizenship-dual-citizen.htm
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

When I was naturalized, I had to turn in the passport of my country of origin but dont' recall having to renounce my citizenship of that country. I do consider myself only a US citizen and not of my country of origin. (IIRC, I think my country of origin did not support dual citizenship.)

IMO, I think the 4473 is pretty clear, "List/check more than one, if applicable." (Not remembering what the wording was before MikeH posted the form, I now think that the addition of, "/Dual Citizenship", besides being more than what the dealer wants, is redundant.) Checking more than one implies dual citizenship. Again, IMO, Headless answered correctly.




EDIT : I take that back, I did not read the full story on how Headless obtained Irish citizenship. Claiming Irish citizenship might be a problem.

 

[Jubjub]

I was born in England to American parents; my dad was in the Air Force. I have a UK birth certificate, a State Department SF-240, which is the form reporting a birth to American parents in a foreign country, and a Certificate of Citizenship (not a Certificate of Naturalization) issued upon my family's return to the country. As far as the good old USA is concerned, I've been a US citizen since I first drew breath. However, simply due to the accident of my birth there, the UK also technically considers me a citizen. As far as UK law goes, if you're born there, you're a citizen there.

The situation with the US and the UK is more or less a unique one in the world of dual citizenship due to the close relationship of the two countries. Legally, I could move to England, work, pay taxes there, get a UK passport, get married, have kids, then come back here at will, with no problems regarding my US citizenship. I know someone else in my situation who did just that. However, as long as I stay here, as far as I know, I'm just a plain old US citizen.

 

[Sistema1927]

Fill the 4473 in completely and truthfully. Your dual citizenship won't negatively impact your approval. I should know, I have been checking US and other, and writing in Canada as my second nationality as long as I can remember, and I have never been disapproved or hung-up.

I carry both US and Canadian passports, and have dual citizenship as an accident of birth. Born in Canada to a US serviceman father, and a British mother. If my mother had been a US citizen I would not have Canadian citizenship, but since my mother was a subject of the Crown I received both. Also, the Canadian rules are a bit obscure, and if I had not lived in Canada as long as I did, or during a different period, I would not have the Canadian citizenship.

 

[camacho]

Dual nationality according to the State Dept:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

 

[solareclipse]

you check all that apply. it will not affect your purchase in any way.

worst thing that can happen if your other country is on some watch list, you might get a delayed response and wait it out.

that's ALL