Dual Lock Gun Safes

[lstdrgn]

I've been researching gun safes (yeah yeah yeah... residential security containers) on this forum for a few weeks now and have narrowed it down to a couple different models. I have decided to go with a mechanical lock over an electronic, for me reliability is more important that speed/ease of opening.

The only curve ball I see is that some manufacturers offer an upgrade to a dual locking system which has BOTH a mechanical dial and electronic keypad. My understanding is that either one can be used independently to open the safe, so if (when) the electronic keypad breaks you have the mechanical dial so you can still access your safe. It seems like this is the best of both worlds and is only a few hundred dollars more for the upgrade which I would definetly not mind spending for the ease of the electronic and piece of mind of the mechanical.

So my questions is, am I missing something here? I'm by no means a safe expert, does having BOTH locks compromise security, make it more difficult/expensive for a safe tech to repair your safe in the event of a break in or failure, or something else I'm not thinking of? Or is this really having the best of both worlds?

 

[a1abdj]

I don't know which gun safe manufacturers (if any) offer this type of set up, but it is common on high security safes and vault doors. The door will have two locks, and the mechanism inside the door can be set to allow either alock to open the door, or to require both locks to open. With this set up you are dealing with two individual locks.

You can also get a redundant lock. They are not very common in the US, but LaGard use to offer them. It is a mechanical and electronic lock built into one unit. You would have a seperate dial and keypad, but there is only one locking unit.

In the end, if you need the ease of access, get an electronic lock. It's not the end of the world if they fail. You "simply" drill the safe and replace the lock. This is very common in commercial settings.

If you do find a gun safe manufacturer that offers a dual custody system as I first described, it may be worth looking into. I'd also like to know who is building them, as I have never seen one on a gun safe. All of the gun safes I have seen with two locks require both locks to be open to access the safe.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Frank,
Your not going to like this but the Patriot Safe company has been doingn this for quite a while on the LEO Special. They come with an electronic lock and two different sets of keys. I have one of these safes and it will open with either one key "and" an 8 digit combination or if the electronic lock fails you can use the two sets of key together and open it that way. You can never get locked out as long as you don't loose the second set of keys.
You do need one key and the combination to open it but has never been an inconvience to me, I like the extra security.
They also come with a battery pack that you can plug into the outside so if the batteries go dead inside the safe you can plug into it from the outside and power it back up or just use both set of keys at the same time and open it that way. One key is a dish shaped high security key and the other one looks like a pop machine key of some kind.

I have my flame retardent suit on so fire away.

 

[lstdrgn]

a1abdj, as always you come through with a great reply. I was at a firearms training class a few weeks ago and they had a sales rep there from Fort Knox. If I remember correctly the rep said a dual lock was an option on any of their safes with the except the lowest end model. I believe it was in the ballpark of $350 for the upgrade. I started doing some research and I found Sturdy also offers this option for $250 and I could have sworn I saw another manufacturer with this option but I can't seem to find it now. However now that you mention it I don't know if these are either/or configurations or if BOTH have to be used to open the door.

I believe it was you that mentioned in another thread that most reputable safe manufacturers will do custom work. I couldn't find any info on Fort Knox's website that says they offer this configuration but I know that they do, I'm wondering if it is the same with other guys. I plan on giving AMSEC a call to see what they say. Before I started calling around though I wanted to see was even a worth while option which is why I wanted to post this question here. I'm not saying this in regards to any of the safe companies but towards sales people in general... most of the time they will tell you what you want to hear to sell you some upgrades. So if this upgrade is available where either lock can be used independently to open the door it seems like this would be a great upgrade.

Again, when I finally do pull the trigger on a gun safe I know 100% that it will have a mechanical lock. For me reliability is what's most important. Of course I certainly see the conveniences of the electronic locks. My budget for a safe is 2-3K so for a couple hundred bucks being able to say I have all the benefits of both seemed like a sweet option.

 

[a1abdj]

Your not going to like this but the Patriot Safe company has been doingn this for quite a while on the LEO Special. They come with an electronic lock and two different sets of keys. I have one of these safes and it will open with either one key "and" an 8 digit combination or if the electronic lock fails you can use the two sets of key together and open it that way. You can never get locked out as long as you don't loose the second set of keys.
You do need one key and the combination to open it but has never been an inconvience to me, I like the extra security.
They also come with a battery pack that you can plug into the outside so if the batteries go dead inside the safe you can plug into it from the outside and power it back up or just use both set of keys at the same time and open it that way. One key is a dish shaped high security key and the other one looks like a pop machine key of some kind.

I have my flame retardent suit on so fire away.

What you are describing is a bit different, in that you're dealing with a locking system that has a key override. This is fairly common on gun safes (and other residential types of safes), but the locks do not carry a UL rating due to how easy it is to bypass the bypass so to speak.

I believe that this is probably why we don't see many of the redundant locks here in the US (aside from cost) as well. Building a secure method of bypass is tricky, since the goal is ultimately to defeat the security of the lock itself.

I plan on giving AMSEC a call to see what they say.

Don't waste your time. They won't do it unless you pay far more than it's worth. Gun safe manufacturers tend to be a bit more consumer friendly when it comes to options on gun safes. AMSEC will also do whatever you want, but boy do they charge for it.

Again, when I finally do pull the trigger on a gun safe I know 100% that it will have a mechanical lock. For me reliability is what's most important. Of course I certainly see the conveniences of the electronic locks. My budget for a safe is 2-3K so for a couple hundred bucks being able to say I have all the benefits of both seemed like a sweet option.

I think the LaGard lock is an excellent option for this. It is a single UL rated lock with an electronic feature built in. You can use either the dial or the keypad to open the safe. They keypad would be your everyday option as it is quick and easy. The dial is then available in the event of a failure.

It is the LaGard 2441. The lock is a bit deeper than a standard lock, but the footprint is the same. Installing a lock like this would be much easier than adding all of the other devices to achieve the same function out of two locks. You should still be able to find one out there somewhere, although I don't know if they are still made.

 

[lstdrgn]

Just checked out the LaGard 2441 and it looks pretty nice. So if I get a safe with just a mechanical dial and down the road I feel I do need the benefits of this setup is this something I can just get a qualified locksmith to replace the current dial with this LaGard 2441? Regardless of the safe manufacturer.... AMSEC, Fort Knox, Sturdy, Liberty... whoever?

I realize all of this is probably overkill for my needs, maybe its just my "techie" nature and wanted the coolest gadget on the block. Of course I will be trying my best to keep this "gadget" hidden from said block.... oh well.

 

[a1abdj]

So if I get a safe with just a mechanical dial and down the road I feel I do need the benefits of this setup is this something I can just get a qualified locksmith to replace the current dial with this LaGard 2441? Regardless of the safe manufacturer.... AMSEC, Fort Knox, Sturdy, Liberty... whoever?

That is mostly correct. The only thing that may give you problems on this type of conversion is the distance between the current lock and the door panel. Since it is a bit deeper, you would need some extra room in the door cavity to make it fit.

Whatever the manufacturer has holding the relock would probably also need to be modified to handle the extra depth of the lock. It would be a tad more complicated than just swapping locks, but certainly not that difficult.

 

[lstdrgn]

a1abdj, thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it. One last question (maybe), you mentioned the method that patriot safe uses creates a sort of security loophole. I'm assuming the LaGard 2441 or a safe the uses 2 quality (S&G or LaGard) locks in the dual configuration would be just as secure as having only one or the other?

Really I think I should just go with the "if ain't broke don't fix it" mentality and stick with my initial decision of just the mechanical which I am plenty comfortable with.... not complicate things with a dual lock.

 

[a1abdj]

a1abdj, thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it. One last question (maybe), you mentioned the method that patriot safe uses creates a sort of security loophole. I'm assuming the LaGard 2441 or a safe the uses 2 quality (S&G or LaGard) locks in the dual configuration would be just as secure as having only one or the other?

A lock with a UL rating will need to meet a number of requirements that deal with the security of the lock itself. If you're ever on Youtube you can look at videos where non rated locks are bypassed in an easy fashion. I myself have bounced safes open, and used other common "tools" like coat hangers and milk cartons to open safes without leaving any trace of forced entry. Any street level thug or curious teenager can obtain instructions for these techniques online easily.

Although there ways to bypass UL rated locks, they typically require somebody who is very skilled. These methods are also fairly time consuming.

 

[beavis956]

La gard 6441

Just an FYI, the 2441 is no longer available and you have to buy the 6441 (39E firmware). Same lock with no design changes.

 

[Jim Watson]

I bought a Fort Knox with the "redundant locking system."
It has separate electric keypad and combination dials; either alone will unlock the door.
Naturally the keypad is quicker but there are a lot more reports of failures of electrics than mechanicals, so I thought it worth the price of the backup.
Interestingly, the combinations are the same. You can readily reprogram the keypad but it is the usual locksmith job to change the dial.

 

[lstdrgn]

I wonder why this option isn't advertised more, especially by Fort Knox. It seems this would be a very popular upgrade.

 

[solidheart]

Brand new redundant lock system by Fort Knox

Fort knox has just started offering the redundant lock. I dont think it's even a year into production yet. This is probably why it is not advertised much yet. Ive seen 4 or five come through and they work fine They do use the lagard lock. The combo and elock are preset with matching codes so the consumer has less trouble trying to remember the 8 digits. If you change the keypad code you may have a hard time going back to the dial combination. It is a single locking system but in the near future maybe we will see a dual high security locking system for gun safes. A frank? Then again this may be pointless with gauged walls.

 

[talist]

On the topic of lock reliability, a gent at Liberty stated that the D-Drive Electronic Lock is the best of both worlds. Electronic code input, with a manual direct drive system.

Anyone have personal experience with this type of lock? I'm considering it myself.

 

[garyh9900]

On the topic of lock reliability, a gent at Liberty stated that the D-Drive Electronic Lock is the best of both worlds. Electronic code input, with a manual direct drive system.

Anyone have personal experience with this type of lock? I'm considering it myself.

I have one on my Liberty Lincoln, I love it. I've had it for about a year, I've not had any problems out of it. I am usually in it several times a day.

 

[solidheart]

I wouldn't go as far to say the d drive is the best of both worlds. It is an electronic lock that does not lock every time you run the bolts out on the safe door. In order to allow the lock to drop the collar around the keypad must be turned. I've never seen an electronic failure on these locks. Be sure you are properly educated on changing the battery on this unit as it can be a little tricky.