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Duck and Cover

Discussion in 'Legal' started by sacp81170a, Apr 8, 2007.

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  1. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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  2. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    I remember doing it. I was also threatened with getting a zero for the day if I was caught talking. I'd hate to get a zero during a nuclear attack. At least I wouldn't have to go home and explain it to my parents.
     
  3. glockman19

    glockman19 Member

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    I remember it very well. in the 60's we were all afraid of a nuclear attack.
     
  4. cbsbyte

    cbsbyte Member

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    Way before my time. I remember the video being shown on TV as a joke. Must have been tought living with the fear that at any moment all humanity would cease to exist. Though we are now reaping what we sown during the cold war.
     
  5. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wzzZsQZYpQ

    This one is good too. :D


    We didn't do this in the 80's, but the nuclear threat certainly seemed real enough. Red Dawn was a great movie. Not sure if means the same thing to people these days.
     
  6. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    'Twas much safer in those days. I remember doing the drill in First Grade, 1952. Back then, the fearsome Russians wanted to live as much as we did. "Mutual Assured Destruction"(MAD) kept them(and us) at bay. The terrorists these days care not one whit about life - even their own. MAD doesn't work with that sort of enemy. These people do not need provocation. They'll do it simply because they believe they must.

    As it stands right now, it's kill or be killed. Period. There is no negotiation. There is no appeasement. Even total capitulation will not save you. The joke back then was "Sit down. Place your head between your knees. Kiss your arse "Good By"". You've got a choice: Armor up or pucker up.

    Woody

    Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
     
  7. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Duck and Cover is not stupid, it's not a lie to the public to 'keep them compalcent'. It's not a joke, and the Lieberals who pretend it is and laugh at the videos are idiots. I can say that because I bought it, when I was in my teens I saw a TV show making fun of it and I stopped thinking, and accepted it as truth.

    Then in college I actually got curious and researched nuclear exchanges, and came across a US congressional report, concise, not too long but full of details, that was a GREAT read. I'll try to find the title again, or buy the whole thing from the Library.

    Essentially in a nuclear exchange on hardened targets they try to put the warhead directly on the silo or bunker, and that maximizes blast overpressure but minimizes ***secondary effects. Every other exchange would use airbursts, targeting oil refineries, industrial or urban areas, it will be a burst way up in the sky that will cause overpressure to a greater area, but less of it. If there was a ground-burst downtown the buildings would severly mitigate all of its immediate effects. For example a bomb in the KiloTon ranges would be truly destructive in a radius measured in blocks, not miles.



    HEALTH EFFECTS:


    IMMEDIATE:

    The immediate effects of a blast are the burst of radiation and the overpressure. The radiation has many forms, but it's all direct. The infra-red radiation will be as bad as the Gamma , but the former can be impeded by a wall or even a curtain, while the latter requires extreme density to catch all the ionizing particles (getting ionized is bad). For example food irradiating plants use 14' thick walls, for absolute safety. And of course lead will catch more radiation than an equivalent thickness of concrete, because it is denser.

    So a bomb goes off, and the average Lieberal is out in the open being a dumbass. What happens to them?

    #1) Close up They get burnt to death really really quickly.

    #2) Farther away they get burnt, but not enough to kill them. Instead they simply become a burn victim as if they were smoking while taking a bath in kerosene. Even farther away they'll simply have moderate or severe burns, which will likely be debilitating but something they might recover from, if they don't get infection (which is easier said than done when there's no medical infrastructure, probably not even clean water). They're probably also blind, to varying degrees. On cloudy days, with snow on the ground, you could get exposed flesh burnt by a blast tens of miles away that you didn't even see, and that you won't hear for several minutes.

    #3) Farther away they catch ionizing radiation, Alpha, Beta, or Gamma. A is stopped by paper, B by tinfoil, G by 14' concrete. It might kill them in days, or weeks, or not. And they won't know if it will kill them, because people take it differently. But after a few days of being sick they'll start feeling better, and they'll feel healthy enough to do activity, maybe dig a grave or something. And then there's a variable chance of whether they'll stay 'healthy' or get very sick again - yes some people will recover from smaller doses, and live for many years being healthy, but they're more likely to get cancer and stuff later on.

    #4) Close up their body is destroyed by overpressure.

    #5) Farther away they get smashed by large & small debris.

    #6) Farther they get impaled by boards from their neighbor's picket fence being blown away from ground zero. The distance this is deadly varies with warhead size, but doubling warhead yield does not equal doubling overpressure radius - you have diminishing returns. A warhead chart can show rings of overpressures, and a legend should list the damage to common structures by said overpressures, measured in PSI.


    AFTER EFFECTS:

    #1) With a groundburst there'll be a fallout plume downwind. If Detroit was hit Windsor would get fallout, it goes miles and miles. The plume will look just like the profile of a candle, if it was burning on its side, the wick was ground-zero, and the flame went horizontally. It's hotter in the middle, a little less hot as you move to the sides, and noticeably cooler the farther downwind you go. Iirc the Gamma radiation often has the shorter half-life (but it all depends on what the bomb was made of), so after a short period of time (weeks) if will be 'safe' to come out because Alpha and Beta can be easily shielded against. But if you've only listened to Lieberal media you might not realize that your clothes and skin are doing an OK job of shielding you, but you're eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and open wounds are NOT protected. So if you don't wear a respirator and goggles and stuff you're going to get fried by radiation that gets INSIDE you, and that stuff can do even more damage.

    #2) With an airburst there isn't going to be much fallout, because the bomb didn't dig a crater and throw dirt up up into the air. But still, stay upwind. Also things that are 'irratiated' won't be safe to stick in your mouth for many years, totally depending on the bomb and the material. Don't buy 2nd hand cars, no matter how low the mileage, or guns even with nice bores.


    So what happens to all the Lieberals who got their info from TV? Well there'll be a lot of worm food. And the immediate and delayed effects of the bomb aren't all that will kill you. A single large airburst above an average city would produce about 15,000 severe burn cases, and the entire USA hospital capacity can't treat anywhere near that many, ever. So most of them die. And the moderate burn victims probably get infections, and then die. And it'll be tough to get to the hospital for that severe cut from your window breaking, so moderate to serious injuries are probably write-offs too. And your blinded folks won't survive without help either. And if you need medicine, good luck with that. And if you have a non-bomb-related accident a month later, guess what all the lingering but inevitably dieing victims from the bomb used up all the medical supplies already, so you're back to civil-war medicine and the higher mortality rate associated with it - nothing like a doctor with a hacksaw.



    Wow, that all sucks eh? You probably wonder how to avoid dieing like all those people. Well you're in luck, because the ways to not die like that are IN THE VIDEOS.


    No offence to anyone, but it just really pisses me off when I found out I was lied to (by a gov't made show on the gov't TV station!) and that Duck and Cover is NOT B.S. And I feel a twinge of anger whenever I see the myth repeated, not at the victim of the lie but at the perpetrators.
     
  8. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    You have to remember Lucky, nuclear weapons were no where near as accurate in the 50s and 60s as they are today. That goes for both sides. Ours were more accurate than the Russians. The Russians made higher megaton rated weapons as way to compensate for inaccuracy.
     
  9. LawBot5000

    LawBot5000 Member

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    Uh, duck and cover actually works. If you are far enough away to have any chance of survival, the biggest danger is from flying glass and other debris. Flash might also be significant, but there is nothing you can do about that since it is usually the first warning.

    Anyone close enough to be incinerated will be unable to take any meaningful action to preserve themselves if the first warning they get is *omgbrightlight*. Duck and cover simply teaches people to instinctively get out of the way of incoming debris and cover their neck. This isnt bad advice.

    The video itself is factually correct and I can find no fault with the advice it gives. It isnt alarmist in the slightest bit. It might be alarming but that is because nuclear bombs are fricken dangerous, not because of any editorial effect.

    edit: the main purpose of that video is to reduce the severity of non-fatal casualties so that more people can survive without medical care. Why no medical care? Because all the doctors and nurses will probably be in just as bad shape as you and even if they survive unscathed, they'll be up to their arms in severe injuries and unable to get to 90 percent of the cases. Forget about bed space.
     
  10. duckandcover

    duckandcover Member

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    Hmmm, what is this duck and cover you speak of? I've never heard of it.:neener:
     
  11. glockman19

    glockman19 Member

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  12. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    The thing that gets me about the video is the difference in attitude displayed by the government then vs. now. "Take responsibility for your own safety and be alert" vs. "wait for the government to come help you." I'd love to see an equivalent production involving personal defense. "Draw and cover." :D
     
  13. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Duck and cover was a small part of it. Bomb shelters were built in backyards complete with generators, HEPA filters, food, water, medicine, etc suitable for a family to survive 6 weeks. Helpful brochures on how to improvise shelters if one wasn't available. Civil defense shelters were clearly identified. Subways were considered shelters. Schools were designed to house displaced populations. Maps were posted which were color coded to indicate if an area was a first strike of second strike target. Meanwhile both the US and the sovs were doing open air testing with bombs of insane size. Accuracy of both bombs and missles was poor so they made up for it with a bigger bang. Evening news had the latest open air test. IIRC the largest warhead tested was something like 60 to 70 megatons. Imagine for a moment the effect of a 60 megaton bomb when we today get freaked out at a piddling little 20 kiloton nuke.

    No, we weren't being paranoid. We believe what would happen and we tried to prepare for it. The generation in control at the time just finished WWII. It was only later we learned how to make ourselves helpless.
     
  14. markk

    markk Member

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    man
    thats one of those thing that you remember but your not sure if it was real
    I remember not only having to practice hiding under our desks but someone had to pull down the window shades first,cause that helps you know.
     
  15. DesertShooter

    DesertShooter Member

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    1961-1964, when I was in high school, they still had the "duck and cover" drills quite often.

    What was scary was that there was a Nike missile site RIGHT next to my high school! The site personnel would go through their OWN drills, including what I called the "quick launch" drill.
    Instead of opening the heavy steel doors hydraulically, which took a long time to fully open, they would pop them open rapidly! The steel doors made a VERY loud banging sound when they popped them open! Then, every once-in-awhile, they'd go one step further by actually moving the missiles into their firing positions! You never knew if it was the "real thing" or just a drill!
    And, IF they had ever actually launched those missiles, much of the high school would have been hit by the missile exhaust!

    During one of the "duck and cover" drills, I asked my buddy, "Are we going to die from an enemy bomb or our own missiles?"
     
  16. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

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    I was raised just outside of Washington D.C. (Bethesda, Maryland). We use to practice leaving our seats and filing out into the hallway to duckdown (with hands over our heads). Surely we would have survived!

    I also remember the CD towers (big yellow horn) and how they use to test them every now an then. Being humans, we adapted and ignored them so they became useless (like 30 seconds was enough time to "run" away from the incoming threat).
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2007
  17. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    I grew up near a nuke transfer point ('course we didn't know that until a few years after it was decomissioned). We were doing those drills in primary school.
     
  18. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    As weird as these things sound to those of us who didn't do any drills in school, at least at that time people accepted it might happen, and did SOMETHING about it. Today's blissninnies pretend it could never happen. Where is the nearest civil defense shelter to you? Is there one? Who has recieved any civil defense materials? I think you can still get the stuff, but you have to look for it.
    Todays version of that film would be Fry and Die.
     
  19. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Read the damned thread! YES that DOES help. Ah to hell with it, let Darwin sort it out.


    I hope you apply the same logic to Hurricanes.


    Worst case scenario was SRBM's launched from Cuba, and your calculations seem to use a constant missile speed over 10km/s in a linear path...

    Even if we took your 30-second warning as fact; Yes, 30 seconds IS enough time to improve your cover. Or don't. I doubt anyone will care if there's one less body competing for food and water.



    What else do you expect from idiots? They're ignorant, and that's the only 'coping mechanism' they have - denial.
     
  20. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    In June of 1980 I was an Airman (one-striper) a few months out of the Security Police Academy and stationed at FE Warren AFB, WY. I was sitting on H-9 LF (Launch Facility) with my ART leader, A1C Ron Wilhite, waiting for an alarm reset after an LF check. Our flight security controller, SSgt Ed Hosch, contacted us on the radio. His words are pretty much burned into my memory: "Hotel Control to Hotel 12, back off site, button up, establish your 2000 foot cordon, and prepare for launch." :what:

    We spent the next 45 minutes waiting for incoming nukes and wondering what was gonna happen after the world ended. When we were finally released and got back to the LCF, we found out that the capsule crew downstairs had received notification of a submarine launched ballistic missile attack from both coasts and had begun breaking the seals on their launch consoles and opened their EWO safe before getting the order to stand down. They got the word about 5 minutes into the whole thing, but we were on the @$$ end of the communication chain, so we didn't get word for that 45 minutes.

    Seems that someone had left an exercise tape on the computer at NORAD HQ in Cheyenne Mountain and that the tape had run inadvertently during a routine systems check.

    Back to the present day: we did many things as a nation at the time that were not necessarily noble, libertarian, or nice. I don't care. Anything that we did at the time to avoid nuclear annihilation of the world was justified. It may not have been pretty, but there's no question that having a world left to worry about is lots better than not. That's my refutation of the "Evil America" argument that so many are willing to trot out to justify why so many in the world don't like us.

    Was the U.S. government guilty of lies, subterfuge and propaganda? Of course. Are we still here to argue about it? Well, yeah. Sucks that circumstances required the kinds of tactics we had to use, but we didn't have a choice. The next question is, how best to let go of the past and deal with the realities of today? It sure doesn't help to give in to a guilt complex that keeps us from dealing with those who would do us harm in a rational manner.
     
  21. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    That is a good story, thanks:)

    Now, I hate to be a downer, but the number of nukes in the world only dropped from a level capable of destroying the world over, taking massive damage, and then destroying it over again with what was left - but the destructive power remaining is still extremely substantial. (as you probably understand better than I, a country wouldn't fire all its nukes in one go, because the survivors would need to retain a reserve force for both deterrent and/or follow-up strikes.)

    And now the technology is proliferating, and though the actual number or tonnage of warheads may not technically be increasing yet, it shows promise to.
     
  22. Jerry Morris

    Jerry Morris Member

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    Even a limited nuke war will change the world as we know it. With the shambles our economy is in,could we recover from OBL's wet-dream? You know, NYC, Chicago, LA and DC cratered?

    The end of the world would be just as welcome. But, what it will be is only The End of the World as We Know It. And THAT is nasty enough. Only the best would be able to survive the Aftermath. I suspect most of the bambi-philes will be long long and forgotten soon after.

    Will I be a Survivor, do I want to be a Survivor? I am not so sure. But, you go with the flow.

    Jerry
     
  23. Jerry Morris

    Jerry Morris Member

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    As an after thought. All who have not researched nuke war effects should. It will not be anything like what Hollywood pouts it out to be.

    Jerry
     
  24. Biker

    Biker Member

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    I used to love those drills when I was a kid because I got to look the up girls dresses.

    Biker:)
     
  25. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

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    You assume that we would detect launch, process the information, then broadcast information at light speed. I don't know where you live, but that doesn't happen here.
    Also, I was living within spitting distance to D.C.
    Perhaps you missed the photos of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (small little atomic bombs, not even the big thermal nuclear kind). I was not taking shelter from radiation, the blast and fireball was the biggest concern. Remember the accuracy of those things.
    But, hey if you think ducking in the hallway with your hands over your head keeps nuclear bombs for hurting, dream on.
     
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