Dumb, Dumb and...............dumber.

[xXxplosive]

After finishing my copy of "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights".....J. Cirillo
it brought me back to the old Elmer Keith mentality. When is an ammo manufacturer going to finally come out with the type of defense round that speaks for itself.

Cirillo had to have a machinest make the dies for him so he could cast his own.....guess after all the experimentation, gunfights and autopsys, who better than the LEO with the highest number of kills in recorded police history would get it right.

The WADCUTTER design.........with the proper powder charge and shoulder profile with a split face.....ie. the "Ole' Dumb Dumd" design.
Jim says he didn't want a slug to mushroom, he wanted the bullet to expand....really expand to 1" if possible. The split wadcutter did just that, it spread like a butterfly's wings opening within the first 2" of initial impact.

If the man with his experience and record would bet his life every time out on a stakeout with this round, why doesn't someone take note and produce it.
Mr. Keith swore by the WADCUTTER design and I guess it still holds true today.
So much hype in advertising with conical shapes, filler materials, controled expansion, lighter recoil, semi-jackets. Remove all the smoke and mirrors and give me what this man knew that worked when the SHTF........
Profile: Hollow Base Wadcutter with a split face design.

 

[ScratchnDent]

I think the marketing teams will have to come up with a new name for it.

"Dumb Dumb" just won't cut it with the tacticool crowd!

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually Elmer prefered SEMI-WADCUTTER bullets because he wasn't worried about expansion (his big-bore bullets were expanded before they left the barrel), and he wanted maximum penetration. He also felt that full-wadcutters lost velocity too fast for effective long range shooting over 100 yards.

But for close in gun fighting you are probably on the right track...

 

[David E]

And it's "Dum Dum" which I believe is the name of either a town or factory in Germany.

 

[mgregg85]

And it's "Dum Dum" which I believe is the name of either a town or factory in Germany.

It comes from the "Dum Dum Arsenal" in India. They made what were essentially the same as our soft point rifle bullets today for the .303 enfield rifles.

 

[David E]

Ok, that's correct. At least I got the spelling right !!

 

[REAPER4206969]

Any of the modern JHP bullets are far superior to those old loads.

 

[kenno]

Like a few others I talked to Cirillio and his son wondering out loud how an individual ends-up being invoulved in more LEO shootings than, not only anyone in his Precient's, City's, County's, State's and Region's recent history but also the entire history of the Eastern Seaboard (discounting the 1776 Revolution). That seems to break alot of Statistical Boundrys. Never got an answer, just a request to review the book. (at my expense)

 

[owlhoot]

His bullet design had nothing to do with his success.

 

[Balog]

I respect Mr Cirillo. But just because he was a dangerous man, that doesn't mean his idea is the be-all, end-all of bullet design. Now, I personally like his idea and think it'd be a good SD round. But just saying "Person X killed a lot of people, so he must have been perfect in all his ways" is a tired trope that adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[dom1104]

I agree. to say a revolver toting cop is the worlds best bullet designer.....

 

[earlthegoat2]

Any of the modern JHP bullets are far superior to those old loads.

Though I tend to agree I dont think anything is far superior to anything in the world of handgun ballistics and bullet design.

I still use the FBI load which I believe is a good compromise between the Cirillo load and modern JHP designs.

For some intresting reading on the use of LHP and JHP out of a 38 revolver:

Fun reading linky

 

[stu454]

I don't recall that the op said that Cirillo was perfect.

 

[xXxplosive]

Nah............if you read the book, he describes how they had to report to the autopsies the next day, police policy. They were first hand there to see the actual effects of they're work.

Let's look at it from a practical point of view not withstanding commercial bullet designs. If someone had to perform under those circumstance and knew the very liklyhood that there was a good chance shots were going to be fired or a gunfight could occur, wouldn't one want the optimum out of the round he was carrying knowing that confidence in it's performace was of the utmost. That seemed to be his goal in the design he developed.....lethality.....the expanding Wadcutter for maximum upset upon impact........makes sence.....No ?

 

[Iggy]

Somebody that knew Cirillo tried to sell the "special bullets" for a while a few years back.

I don't think he had many takers and gave up.

 

[pbearperry]

Jim Cirillo was very interested in bullet design and function.He also did a lot of study of the reversed HBWC along with pouring gunpowder into the large cavity with a primer loaded on top of the powder and a BB glued onto the primer to explode the powder.I don't know how much success he had with them,but he was always trying to make a better bullet.
If I remember correctly he killed about 7 men and wounded about 15 more while doing stakeouts in the late 60's-70's.

 

[Old Fuff]

Any of the modern JHP bullets are far superior to those old loads.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of examples where a Tactical II Super Maximum Wonder Bullet (T2SMWB) didn’t perform as advertised based on jelly tests. The reason almost always is that nothing in the way of a critical organ was damaged, combined with quick medical assistance.

But for many they are an important security blanket that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy knowing that their personal carry piece is loaded with the latest and greatest. I have known a small number of “professionals in the business” that didn’t worry about bullets, they simply used whatever they’re agency or department issued. What saved their necks was a combination of courage and skill.

 

[jmortimer]

I like wadcutters for self-defense.They really penetrate well and seem to out penetrate SWC - This article discusses Cirillo and use of wadcutters with low velocity, great accuracy and fantastic penetration even at 657 fps. http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/
It is really all about the meplat for destruction with hard cast bullets and the DEWC has the largest meplat possible as it is full profile - the SWC not so much - in fact the SWC has a small meplat which is why Veral Smith invented Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) with maximum meplat and why so many hand gun hunters use LBT hard cast bullets especailly for large and dngerous game. Here is info from Brass Fetcher.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo...r standard pressure Hard Cast Wad Cutter.html
150 grain Buffalo Bore DEWC at 900 fps penetrating 23" of ballistic gelatin

 

[HGUNHNTR]

I don't believe bullet design or performance makes a whole lot of difference in the real world. If you break it down to the basics, you are pushing a peice of semi-soft metal through living tissue. I just dont' beleive that hundredths or even tenths of an inch in bullet diameter are going to be a difference maker. Penetration, shot placement yes, bullet design no. My experience comes from many "tests" afield shooting a wide variety of animals with a wide variety of calibers and bullet designs over my lifetime. Never can I recall the bullet's performance being a significant factor one way or another. If there are any fisherman here you know what I mean. You have one trusty tried and true lure among a whole tacklebox of lures. That lure, because of your faith in it, gets used more than the others because of previous success with it. Because it is used more it catches more fish thus increasing your faith in it, and the cycle continues.

 

[easyg]

Mr. Keith swore by the WADCUTTER design and I guess it still holds true today.
So much hype in advertising with conical shapes, filler materials, controled expansion, lighter recoil, semi-jackets. Remove all the smoke and mirrors and give me what this man knew that worked when the SHTF........

Mr. Keith never used modern bonded hollow points.
Who's to say what he would prefer if he were alive today.

 

[Old Fuff]

Elmer favored hard-cast lead bullets over jacketed ones of any kind, because he felt that jacketed bases didn't upset well enough to provide a gas seal in the bore. I highly doubt that he would have changed his mind, and I knew him.

So far as rifles were concerned he was on the big-bore side of the, big-bore/small-bore debate.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Regarding police work, statekout squad, and shootings, you don't have to know much about NYC in the 60-70's to understand just how many robberies occurred, and that NYPD was very active in engaging the robbers whenever they could. Cirillo was just in the right place at the right time. Many of his co-workers were also part of the "offiicer involved shootings", so he wasn't alone. With regards to individual officers with multiple shootings during their career, Cleveland PD had a fellow that was involved in nine justified shootings (one when he was off duty driving down the freeway), and they cleared him every time. He was a Viet Nam vet, and rumored to have lightning fast reflexes. When he saw a weapon in hand or being drawn, he fired; instinct. Maybe better termed: survival. I'm sure there are dozens of officers across the country who are involved in more than they would care to be, Jack Bauer excluded.

 

[Balog]

The basic argument that "Person X was great and chose gun/bullet Y, therefore Y is teh bestest thing evar" is a logical fallacy. It's called arguing from authority, try looking it up sometime.

Look, let's take pistols as an example. You could say "Well SEALs use Sigs (or whatever they use these days) so obvi they are teh bestest." I could say "Well MEUSOC Force Recon Marines use pimped out 1911's so they are teh bestest." We could lather rinse repeat for every Spec Ops force in the world, and it would prove nothing. If you think gun/bullet A is great, fine. Argue it based on it's merits, not on which famous person favored it.

Now, again, I personally like large meplat cast boolits for defensive use so I think we're on the same side here. But the basic argument is flawed.

 

[Quoheleth]

In the incidental/for what it's worth category, I was reading some old Skeeter Skelton last night in Good Friends, Good Guns, Good Whiskey and came across something he wrote wherein he praised the .38 Special with wadcutters. Now, I had just read an article he wrote where he praised the Sharpe-type SWC bullet and thought to myself, "huh???" So, I kept reading and skimming and what I realized is that his thinking seemed to change through the decades. The article praising the full wadcutter was in the mid 60s (1964, IIRC). Later, he praised the SWC (late 60s, early 70s). Finally, by the late 70s or early 80s he spoke against the .38 Special - even +P stuff - as a defense round because it just didn't measure up when compared to loadings in the .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .41 Magnum, et. al. I think what I was seeing in Skelton's writing was a man who, through time and experience, came to realize the full wadcutter was outgunned by better profiles and bullets in bigger (or, in the case of the .357 Magnum, longer) cartridges. Yes, he did write a couple articles wherein he likeed the reversed HBWC but again, those were early in his work. Later, he clearly preferred HPSWC.

Based on this, I suspect that if Skeeter (and maybe Elmer, too) were around today he would eschew the wadcutter for anything but paper and very small game.

Q

 

[Leanwolf]

PBEARPERRY - " If I remember correctly he [Cirillo] killed about 7 men and wounded about 15 more while doing stakeouts in the late 60's-70's."

That might have been a record on the east coast, but the late, great, Texas Ranger, Frank Hamer, killed a lot more criminals that that. During his long career as a Texas peace officer, Hamer killed 34 men and one woman. The woman was Bonnie Parker and her partner-in-crime, Clyde Barrow.

I haven't the faintest idea what bullets Hamer used in the various cartridges of his many firearms, but whatever they were, they worked. Did it have something to do with accuracy?

If you want a very interesting read, buy a copy of "I'M FRANK HAMER, The Life Of a Texas Peace Officer," by John H. Jenkins and H. Gordon Frost, The Pemberton Press, (c)1968. You won't be sorry.

L.W.