Dumb, Dumb and...............dumber.

[xXxplosive]

BALOG....No argument here..............IMO though, seeing is believing and disection of the actual wound channels during an autopsy is proof enough of what lethality was and not some gellitan block. Obviously this being CQB situations Mr. Cirillo seemed to believe that being struck by the full diameter of a jacked up wadcutter type round rather than a conical and better yet with a Dum Dum profile added to the lethality......I can see that too.
But there are variable that exist here, I suppose arms manufactures just wouldn't produce this type of round today being just to viscious in the eyes of the judicial system and the public.....that's not to say it didn't do what was expected of it.

 

[Ithaca37]

If I remember correctly he killed about 7 men and wounded about 15 more while doing stakeouts in the late 60's-70's.

His bullet design had nothing to do with his success.

Yup. Ambushing and gunning people down isn't really that hard and doesn't require special bullets.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Not that it matters but I think Col. Askins did his fair share of shooting at folks.

 

[Old Fuff]

Not that it matters but I think Col. Askins did his fair share of shooting at folks.

True, as did fellow Texan, John Wesley Hardin, and neither had any Tactical II Super Maximum Wonder Bullets (T2SMWB) at the time. But I think they got by using some of them high capacity six-shooters like they have in movies...

Ya' think...

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Cirillo praised the M1 carbine over the shotgun. The stakeout squad used both to gain superiority over armed robbers during the takedowns in the places being robbed. Revolvers were probably used after the other guns were empty............

 

[REAPER4206969]

rue, as did fellow Texan, John Wesley Hardin, and neither had any Tactical II Super Maximum Wonder Bullets (T2SMWB) at the time. But I think they got by using some of them high capacity six-shooters like they have in movies...

Those men used the best that was available during their time. Bullet technology has come a very long ways since the 60's-70's.

 

[Balog]

I don't know how much morgue examination Mr Cirillo did. But saying "X round was effective" is not the same as saying "X round is better than Y." And given that most modern designs were not available for comparison at the time, one can't say for certain what Mr Cirillo would choose today.

 

[Zundfolge]

Those men used the best that was available during their time. Bullet technology has come a very long ways since the 60's-70's.

Indeed, I think some folk here have really underestimated how far the technology has come.

Anyway, according to Massad Ayoob (who actually KNEW the man);
"Toward the end of his life, he was generally to be found carrying one or another small Glock, either the G27 in .40 S&W or the G30 in .45 ACP"

 

[Old Fuff]

Those men used the best that was available during their time. Bullet technology has come a very long ways since the 60's-70's.

If the technology has come such a long ways nobody would have been killed back then...

Does you mean 1860's and 70's or 1960's and 70's?

 

[HB]

I agree with many of the above posters, just because some guy killed a bunch of people doesn't mean he knows what is best. When you look at the lawmen of the 1870s-1890s, most of them were basically hired guns, not good peace officers. I assume this to be correct in the 1960s as well.

That being said, these rounds are just as effective today was they were then. That's why I carry my Peacemaker with blackpowder loads and 250 grain pure lead slugs (loaded 5 instead of 6 of course, wouldn't want to hurt somebody).

HB

 

[Frank Ettin]

Defensive ammunition and JHP bullets have come a long way since the days that Jim Carillo was on the Stakeout Squad.

 

[Oyeboten]

Round pure Lead Ball....454 in diameter...weighing I suppose, 160 odd grains...travelling say around 1,100 FPS out of 1st, 2nd or 3rd Dragoon...or a little less if from say an Colt M1860 Percussion Revolver...


I believe these did very well by any standard, even to-day's...mushrooming well enough, penetrating well enough...


As for now, I have no trouble believing a modified 'Dum Dum' or a modern version of the old .476 Eley/Enfield 'Manstopper', being a hollow-base hollow-nose, pure Lead slug of .45-something diameter, and, weighing into the 200s, with right Speed, would be hard to beat.

No reason a peppey .38 Special Round of similar sort, or, as was mentioned, having a slit or even deep "X" in the otherwise flat front, if able to be expelled above 800 FPS and pure Lead, should behave very well.

Make your own...


I doubt any of the Ammunition Manufacturers will offer these any time soon.

Too 'simple', too low tech, too soberingly 'plain' and nasty.

Hi Tech gee-gaw Bullets, somehow seem justifiable morally, for their high tech sophistication in offering 'stopping' power via high tech sophistication.

Same or better 'stopping power' with merely a pure or light alloy Lead shape, somehow seems merely too direct and forthright for it's purpose for advertising or comsumer emotion to hook in without sobering unglorified pause.

 

[golden]

Not really

OYEBOTEN,

A company did offer a lead bullet that was pre-split QUIK SHOK bullet from TRITON. It did not appear to sell well, so something simple might not appeal to the buyer as well.

AS FOR MAKE YOUR OWN AMMO. THAT IS ASKING FOR A POSSIBLE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION OR AT THE LEAST, A CIVIL LAWSUIT.

Also, one reason that the wadcutter did not catch on for self defence is that it flies like a brick, loosing velocity quickly with that big flat surface. It is ok for accross the room distance, but for police work, it was surpassed by the semi-wadcutter hollow points and jacketed hollow points.

Upside down wadcutters can destabilize in flight and begin to tumble which is bad for penetration and expansion. They were writen about in the early 70's where their explosive entry wounds made them a hot topic among gun writers. I think the experience showed they were not the answer.

A lot of the lead bullets have problems. One is LEADING. If the bullet is soft enough to expand, it will leave lead in the barrel.

The old NYCLAD bullets got around this by adding a nylon coating over the soft lead bullet.

I use NYCLADS in my snub .38 Specials. If the gun is bigger and heavier, I go with jacketed hollow points at +P velocities. I think they each work at the velocity they were intended for.

Jim

 

[TT]

Quite a few years back I read an article on Cirillo and his development of the Safe Stop bullet. IIRC, his primary concern was producing a bullet that would be less likely to deflect off of the skull than RNL, hence the wadcutter.

 

[xXxplosive]

Well, I guess I'm entitled to my own opinion, but I still think there's something to be said for a "jacked up" Wadcutter load....again CQB...defensive round...25yds. or less.

And we all agree no one wants to get hit with any type of modern JHP round that mushrooms but the pics in his book of the test Wadcutters split open butterfly fashion is just one nasty looking Hombre that would definately "Call It A Day" and fast.

 

[xXxplosive]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/


A good read..........