Dumb KelTec Sub2K Thought Experiment

[Cliff Roberts]

At one time, I remember seeing something about KelTec producing a prototype series of the Sub2K with a steel receiver. I had heard promises/whispers of M-Carbo producing something similar but don't recall ever seeing anything materialize.

And thus, we arrive at the main question: Anyone have any knowledge of someone making a stamped steel clamshell receiver for the Sub2K?

I think the Sub is a genuinely unique and innovative design but, in practice, I've never been particularly impressed by the Sub2K as a pcc. More recently, I've played with the idea of replacing it with a Century Arms AP-5 should the brace rule ever be overruled. If we're being totally honest with ourselves... the Sub2K is kinda jank. I have the multi-mag version and I HATE the faux castle nut (thank god for their warranty because I've had to replace that thing a half-dozen times in the 6 or so years I've owned that gun), I don't care for the lockup on the trigger guard, the sights are awful and this is especially true for the front sight being threaded on to the barrel requiring the front sight be timed, the recoil feels unnatural, the charging handle sucks, the reclaimed Florida beach-trash plastic polymer doesn't inspire confidence, and the rails on the top of the handguard are all but useless. A lot of these can be mitigated through aftermarket products or, if you have some machine tools, some of them can be addressed in the shop.

All the gripes about the gun aside, I've always been interested in the idea of a stamped steel subby. Played with the idea of making one a few times but making the dies would take significantly more skill than I have to manufacture and cost significantly more money in steel stock than I'm interested in paying, especially for a gun I don't particularly like lol.

This turned a bit into a gripe session - my apologies - but I'm interested to hear the community's thoughts on a steel framed Sub or if it was something that's already been done (or cooler yet, something I could buy and try)

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I've thought about it, and I don't know if the Sub 2K would scale well to actual hard use. Its bolt is left wide-open exposed to the elements when the gun is folded, optics are always going to be a kludge, blowback recoil is always going to be a negative compared to sub guns with lockup actions...

It's kind of in a sweet spot now, as a $400 fancy version of the Hi Point. I don't mind it at all as a box-stock shooter, and the folding works fine if you conceal it in a bag or throw it in vehicle.

I just don't know if there is a $1000 duty grade gun hiding within that design, that could compete with something like a CZ Scorpion or an MP5.

Also, what is the deal with that giant castle nut?

 

[ECVMatt]

My Sub has been great, but I do recognize that it is not a long-term durable gun.

I would be interested in a metal clam shell it one were every produced. I never thought of that as an accessory, but it make sense to me.

 

[hso]

Sub2K with a steel receiver

I have one. They were the first produced of the Sub9 folders. I dont know how many steel receiver Sub9s were manufactured and sold. Mine uses Glock mags.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I have one. They were the first produced of the Sub9 folders. I dont know how many steel receiver Sub9s were manufactured and sold. Mine uses Glock mags.

Was it steel or cast aluminium? I remember seeing maybe 1-2 Sub9s, but wasn't looking for something like that at the time, then they vanished overnight.

 

[hso]

Steel. Magnet sticks to it.

KelTec was impressed I had one and offered to buy it for twice what I paid NIB.

 

[Lefty38-55]

... I've always been interested in the idea of a stamped steel subby ...

There is one ... the Schmeisser MP40

 

[Coyote3855]

I have one and agree it's more of range toy/bug out fantasy gun than a practical PCC. It's in my vehicle on long distance trips, takes the same mags as my Glock 19 and 19X.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I have one and agree it's more of range toy/bug out fantasy gun than a practical PCC. It's in my vehicle on long distance trips, takes the same mags as my Glock 19 and 19X.

Mine only has to survive a 20 mile march home from work. If I do too, it did its job.

 

[Cliff Roberts]

I've thought about it, and I don't know if the Sub 2K would scale well to actual hard use.

Also, what is the deal with that giant castle nut?

Answer: it doesn't scale well! I don't think I've run 2000 rds through it and I wouldn't trust my life with it with the way it falls apart like it does. As for the second part quoted... RIGHT?!?!?!

I have one. They were the first produced of the Sub9 folders. I dont know how many steel receiver Sub9s were manufactured and sold. Mine uses Glock mags.

I think that's what I recall seeing. How does it compare, if I might ask? Feel a little more sturdy or does it still feel like it's gonna rattle apart?

There is one ... the Schmeisser MP40

Preach! Doesn't make that gun any less weird tho lol

Mine only has to survive a 20 mile march home from work. If I do too, it did its job.

I think the gun would survive a 20mi March better than this fat, old fart! I'd tell the Sub to go on without me and leave me in the nearest Arby's parking lot!

Maybe it's some nostalgia for first/second war Sub machine guns but I feel like that KelTec would have been such a zinger if it were more... metallic!

 

[starling]

If they were durable I would own them. Also as unique as they are I would also likely pay quite a bit more. I stick to Ingram design semi auto carbines for the most part on 9mm (I dont recommend them though). Heavier and nowhere near as portable but at heart they are a strong design for semi auto and very simple. Im not one to do the backpack carbine stuff anyways so it not a huge deal. Classic Kellgren design but the build quality was always lacking. Ill never understand why he does so many great designs only to sabotage them by riding so close to the threshold in terms of durability.

 

[hso]

gonna rattle apart?

It has been perfect.

I have two friends with the later models of Sub2k and the have never had a problem with theirs. Admittedly they only have put a few hundred rounds through theirs, but they've done so without a problem.

If you are concerned about your Sub2k, I recommend send it to KT citing the problems you have had. I have found their service to be about the best in the industry.

 

[someguy2800]

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest a sub2k is a duty quality firearm. As I see it, the folding aspect is really what makes it unique and valuable. When folded its probably the smallest16" barrel weapon in existence which means its stowable, hidable, packable into spaces that you would never assume is large enough to be holding a carbine. Its a backup to your handgun when a real rifle is too big or too heavy to take along, and it does a pretty good job of that.

 

[eharri3]

I just got the g17 version. It is basic and crude and has a weird manual of arms.

OTOH it's feather light, keeps almost everything in the 2x3 bulls eye of a man sized target at 75 yards on the bench, and has not malfunctioned in its first 450 rounds through Pmag, Promag, OEM glock magazines, using cheap 115 grain brass, steel case, or SD ammo.

I actually find it to be a reasonably fun plinker with a bolt tube cover and stock pad and taller rear sight. But I choose to accept it for what it is. An effective SHTF gun that always goes bang as long as none of the plastic parts that keep it light and cheap wore out. Now that it's zeroed and function checked it'll sit in the safe ready to go into its 17 inch laptop case with a few 31s for spares if the need ever arises. It will go out occasionally for function checks and to break the monotony but otherwise I'll put more miles on my FM9 upper and just sprinkle the sub in here and there.

For each person who says they fall apart on a few hundred rounds I hear from a bunch of others who put a few thousand through them malfunction free

 

[halfmoonclip]

This thread has summed up the Sub2K, and KelTec gun in general. The engineering is really clever and innovative; why not make them just a little more durable in feel?
There are alternative PCCs out there, but they require either a tax stamp or the now banned brace to compete in length.
Realize any kind of machine work raises the price of anything, but that same banned brace business may bring competitors to market.
I have a Beretta Storm; it doesn't fold, but it is only slightly longer than an SBR AR with a 10" barrel. A 'through the grip' design is shorter anyway; were someone to bring out a quality 'through the grip' design with a full barrel, and a folding stock, they just might have something.
The original 16" Scorpion, with a factory, folding stock, might make some sense.
Moon

 

[LoonWulf]

This thread has summed up the Sub2K, and KelTec gun in general. The engineering is really clever and innovative; why not make them just a little more durable in feel?
There are alternative PCCs out there, but they require either a tax stamp or the now banned brace to compete in length.
Realize any kind of machine work raises the price of anything, but that same banned brace business may bring competitors to market.
I have a Beretta Storm; it doesn't fold, but it is only slightly longer than an SBR AR with a 10" barrel. A 'through the grip' design is shorter anyway; were someone to bring out a quality 'through the grip' design with a full barrel, and a folding stock, they just might have something.
The original 16" Scorpion, with a factory, folding stock, might make some sense.
Moon

S&W has that wierd looking side folder thing now.....dont know if its any tougher than the sub.


Personally the sub feels fine to me, but then my other pcc is a hi-point which runs like a champ.

 

[Ignition Override]

Aren't the standard Kel Tec .223 semi-auto rifles known to have. Very tight or gritty triggers?

If so, that’s the only reason I never bought a Kel, and would have been for simple plinking.

I probably should have dedicated more time reading about them as they appear to be a very cost-effficient way to destroy clay pigeons at 50 yards with centerfire ammo- on a berm.

 

[Speedo66]

I’ll just throw out that I got an ad from AIM Surplus today that they’re selling Sub2K’s for $419, and Keltec is giving a $100 rebate.

No metal receivers mentioned. Those all metal Sub 9’s also have a metal grip, which is nice. The plastic one on my 1st gen Sub2K feels kind of weak.

 

[Tilos]

S&W has that wierd looking side folder thing now.....dont know if its any tougher than the sub.


Personally the sub feels fine to me, but then my other pcc is a hi-point which runs like a champ.

And that hi-point can be change into this:

Wil have an even crappier trigger though.

.

 

[starling]

And that hi-point can be change into this:
View attachment 1165129
Wil have an even crappier trigger though.

.

You are all good there. That looks like a lot of fun to shoot. I am anything but a snob. Hi-points are great firearms for what they are any anyone that says otherwise is just silly . Im itchin to try that 10mm pistol. Your "aweful" Hipoint carbine can take pressure loads that will likely blow up or destroys a keltec in short order. They may be a little homely (seems like most modern firearms are now) but Hi-points are well designed.

 

[LoonWulf]

And that hi-point can be change into this:
View attachment 1165129
Wil have an even crappier trigger though.

.

I was on the waiting list for those lol. I didn't have the money when they dropped and always find other stuff to spend it on since....
..still pretty bloody cool, even if the trigger is questionable lol.

 

[halfmoonclip]

KelTec should make their guns just a bit more solid/durable feeling, and HiPoint should hire an industrial designer to make their carbine less cobbled looking. Then work on their handguns; they don't have to look like a brick with a handle.
BullPups are another way to make carbines shorter and handier, and it seems some MFG is missing a real chance, now that 'braces' are maybe banned.
Moon

 

[starling]

They dont have to look like a drill either. the old Hipoints (stallards, Haskells, mavericks) looked more like bricks with handles and the aesthetics were better. If nothing else they should go full Sci Fi and have those slide completly round Like a tube gun. Tec9s, Claridge Hi Tecs (Gonzgz), and Stens look pretty cool. Heck even fully square like a Ingram MAC 11A1 would look better.

I love hi-points and the company for what they are but its gotten a bit ridiculous. I cant think of any American ZAMAK manufacturer who has ever made uglier Firearms. Even Lorcins are better looking. Its been over 30 years since they made that switch and I still cant get use to it.

Their stuff performs though. Their original carbines were not too bad looking. They had that Gyroget look to them.

Strange though. The heart of that whole design is slide weight. They could make those slides look like desert eagle or anything else if they wanted. Carbines could also look like anything. Who the heck are these people working at Hipoint? I wanna meet the individual that signs off on the final aesthetics. Rodney Dangerfield from Caddyshack? Plaid pants and all?

Its too bad the ATI Hi-point carbine Beretta Storm style stocks had so many problems. Those looked pretty good. Those bullpup stocks dont look like an AUG but they are a lot better looking than anything Springfield Armory or Keltec has come up with. If Hi-point did an AUG stock the demand would be so high they would need to shut down the pistol production line to keep up.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Amen, Starling. HiPoint, and KelTec, are just that close to something much better. Maybe they are making enough money as it is, that they don't feel the need to change anything. But it's too bad.
Moon

 

[starling]

Amen, Starling. HiPoint, and KelTec, are just that close to something much better. Maybe they are making enough money as it is, that they don't feel the need to change anything. But it's too bad.
Moon

Agreed. Manufacturers often get complacent and stop being creative. I can be very harsh on manufactures for various reasons but its coming from the POV of an enthusiast and someone who is always doing things (I can get bored easily). Even through the lens of profits and marketing though most of these manufacturers fall very short.

Keltec will continue to be known for interesting designs but flimsy junk basically suited for range fun until Kellgren gets back to making firearms suitable for more heavy duty work. The P11 and P32 is far from a flimsy design. I still have not gotten my hands on the P15 pistols but from what I can tell Im not all that impressed with the design.

Hi-point will continue to be known for great performing and durable budget firearms but ugly as sin and overall kinda goofy. Hi-point does a whole lot of things right in their approach. The hard stuff they are dialed in well (factory magazines are lousy though on most of the models). Aesthetics is pretty easy. Ive never met anyone that absolutely loved the way Hi-points look. They can literally make those fireams look like anything if they want. They will still be BIG because of the slide mass needed but they dont have to be ugly. The old Stallard were very plain but really not crazy Ugly. Basically a traditional plain Semi Auto frame with a more Glock style slide (which is also plain). They could also go the other route and make it look like the HK VP70z. Zero reason for Hipoints to be ugly. Its one of the biggest reasons they are not more widely accepted in the firearms community.

People like to trash a lot of these smaller American companies but most of them are doing it right. Sccy pistols have only improved since they were introduced they continue to do so (magazines need work still). FMK has the 9c1 pretty much dialed in now. Diamondback is also much improved in terms of durability now. These are Competitors for Keltec and in some ways Hi-point on the budget pistol market but not the carbines.

Whats crazy is Hi-point trying to offer a carbine in 30SC but ignoring 7.62x25 and 357Sig. I didnt see that one coming. 30Super is going to be dead pretty soon for the most part outside of handloaders unless these manufacturers are all working on secret designs but I dont see it happening. Hi-point is EXTREMELY slow for new offerings that should not take that long. I doubt they will ever go double stack to improve capacity at this point unless thats somehow the primary drive for the 30SC. Would be funny if Hi-point was the company to save that cartridge from obscurity.

As far as the Keltec Sub2K goes. Its one of Kellgrens most successful selling designs. Why he choses not to improve the durability and build quality is beyond me. I suspect someone will grab that design eventually and improve it. Kinda like Ruger did when they took the PF9 to another level with the LC9 (which is a much, much better firearm). The S&W folding carbine does not impress me at all. Its a little stronger IMO but bulky and not nearly as portable. Maybe one of the Smaller Companies with have a go at it. Ruger seems to not be interested in Folding carbines as a concept as they have taken the break down carbine route.

Henry is making 9mm carbines now that look pretty good from videos Ive seen. I cant see them doing it though. If anything Henry needs to bring back the excellent Action Arms Timberwolf pump carbines. That design has Henry written all over it.