EAG Tactical - Pat Rogers Carbine Operators Course (PICS)

[Zak Smith]

Just finished the 3-day Carbine Operators course run by Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) at the Pueblo West Sportsmans Club (CO). "Most" of the students were more or less squared away- more than in prior carbine classes hosted there. There were I think 2 or 3 rifles that kept going down and needed to be replaced to finish the class. All shooters used AR-15 pattern rifles. Failures were due to unstaked gas keys and improperly manufactured bolt carrier groups. Some ammunition problems as good training ammo is getting harder to get / afford.

My 12" SBR ran 100% with zero malfs throughout the class. I didn't clean it at all, just added 2 drops of lube at lunch and the end of each day into the vent holes in the bolt carrier. I used XM193 from 2006.

Pat runs a solid class that keeps coming back to proper execution of the fundamentals, to include mindset. If you have the chance to attend one, do not miss it.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

............... Larger version of above photo.

 

[oobray]

Pics look good. Can you give anymore details about the course?
Were the students mostly citizens or LE, or security of some type?

 

[Zak Smith]

We had 2-3 LE including one SWAT. One active duty Army Officer. One ARNG. One PMC. Several former military. A couple in construction, and one USPS employee. The rest were civilians in science or engineering. 22 students total.

............... Larger version of above photo.

Here's the course description:
http://www.eagtactical.com/coursedetails.asp?ListID=5

The shortest summary is that it covered everything required to pass the MEUSOC M4 qual which we ran on Day 3.

 

[Jeff22]

EAG Tactical Carbine Operator's Course

I just attended this class in May. It was OUTSTANDING.

For those unfamiliar, the farthest distance we shot in this class at was 50 yards. The focus on the class are the close range skills needed in the defensive use of the rifle. We did lots of shooting while advancing, multiple targets, headshots, reloading drills, and transitions from the rifle to the handgun.

Many of the firing exercises were based on the MEU SOC qual courses for rifle & pistol. (MEU = Marine Expeditionary Unit. SOC = Special Operations Capable). When the Marines shoot the course, they do it in full gear with helmets and armor & equipment. Even without all that stuff, we found the time limits on a couple of the stages to be TIGHT.

Here is a link to a copy of that course of fire:

http://thecurmudgeon.freeservers.com/meusoc.pdf
(MEU SOC QC for Carbine and Handgun)

Most of Pat Roger's classes have a mix of police/military/citizen shooters. Sometimes a police agency or military unit will contract for a class for members of their group only, but many of his classes are open enrollment.

Everybody in my class had some kind of electronic sight, other than myself. (Since the AR-15 in my squad car has iron sights, I use iron sights if I attend a rifle class or shoot in a 3 gun match). However, if I get an oppertunity to attend this class again in 2 or 3 years, I'll do so with an electronic sight (probably an Aimpoint). I think it would be interesting to attend the same class several times with a variety of equipment.

Pat recommended a 50 yard zero for urban use with the carbine.

Come to class with your gun zeroed in. We did shoot to adjust and check sights at the beginning of each day, but it's simpler to have taken care of that issue before hand.

Make sure your scope mounts are mounted securely and that your optics retain zero after lots of shooting. Bring spare battries. Bring lube for the rifle. If the class is in hot weather, prepare to hydrate with some kind of electrolyte replacement drink like Gatorade or Gookinade or Cyclomax.

Make sure you start with clean weapons, well lubricated. Function test your ammunition and all your magazines before the class (the non-tilt magazine followers for the AR-15/M-16 weapons from Mag Pul are a great addition to your magazines). Also practice with the magazine pouches or load-bearing equipment you plan to use in the class. You may find that you have to make some adjustments to how your gear or pouches are arranged.

Practice the transition from the long gun to the handgun. We did a lot of that in class.

A one-point tactical sling is very useful in this application.

We shot about 1200 rounds of rifle ammo and 150 (?) rounds of pistol ammo in the class. It was a quick three days, and well recommended.

 

[taliv]

I attended Pat's class this past week (15-17 Aug) in Memphis and my experience was nearly identical to the above.

The class was outstanding. My interests were more game oriented than tactical, but I still managed to pick up 5 or 6 good habits. There were fewer civilians and more LEO in my class than Zak's class, but the failure rate was about the same. My rifle never missed a beat (I can't say the same for the pistol... although I did drop it on the deck twice (holster broke) before it FTE'd, so I'll have to get it checked out). I used reloads in both rifle and pistol and shot just shy of 1200 and 167 rounds of each respectively.

There were a couple rifles in the class that seemed problematic. Both seemed to malfunction about every third string. One had a rock river 2-stage trigger that kept being blamed, but I never heard specifically what it was doing. The other rifle's malfs were blamed on Q3131A ammo (I think).

One thing that amazed me was the number of guns various LEO folks brought to class that weren't zeroed. A couple weren't on paper at 50 yrds and lots of them were about a foot off. holy crap! how does that happen??

another thing that surprised me was the feedback about what equipment works and what doesn't. there were lots of stories about nearly everything breaking. eotechs, acogs, bolts breaking in two, etc. etc. one of the more interesting stories there was a guy who bought a Short Dot which broke, then got a replacement and it was broken as well. but then, there were the REALLY wacked out failures in Pat's picture book. The point being, that nothing's perfect, no matter how much you pay for it and no matter how many internet bozos claim it's never failed.

yet another thing that surprised me was how different Pat's philosophy (on everything) was from conventional wisdom. length of pull, placement of the stock, choice of optics, zero, sling, etc. His opinions were well supported though and sure seem to make sense.

Most importantly, I figured out how to get a quicker target acquisition with my acog at super-close distance, so i was really happy with that; although I sure stunk up the 50 yrd line on the meusoc course.


The thing I liked most about the class was Pat's style of teaching and the course format. I've been to a couple classes where they say they're going to teach you something and practice it a whole bunch of times, then they proceed to do it twice and move on to the next 30 things.

In Pat's class, we really only learned a couple of things each day and did them over and over and over. I may know $&@) all about military/police/ninjas, but I can tell the difference between someone who is trying to teach me something vs someone who is trying to impress me with how much they know.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Thanks for the kind words!
Re 2 stage trigger. That was on a cops play gun. While yours worked, his did not.
Re zeros. There were two guys who had zero issues. One was a cop with a new optic, and one was a geek with a loose arms gooseneck mount. No surprise there. The older guy on the high end also had issues with the same mount.
The Q3131A ammo is out of spec israeli garbage. It pops primers on a regular basis, and the ambient temps aggravated that situation.
My philosophy stems from the fact that while i shot High Power, 3 gun, CAS and IPSC, my entire life has been spent as a Marine, cop and OGA. My doctrine evolves from that frame of reference, having done it operationally as well as being involved in training.
What was the name of the high tech holster you had??
You were a good student, and paid attention to the instruction, processed the information, and then ran with it.

 

[taliv]

thank you Pat for the class! and glad to hear the zero issues weren't as serious as i'd supposed. I definitely want to take this (and your other) classes again. Next time, I'm not dropping any points at 50

the holster is a guga ribas.
http://www.eco-comex.se/gugaribas/english/products.htm

After some investigation, I'm not entirely prepared to blame the holster. I'm going to have to accept a little responsibility for it. The issue was that after working fine the first two days, I think I forgot to tighten the screw that holds the holster itself to the belt, and after several sprints from the 50 to the 25, it finally let go and fell to the grass. The second time, I fumbled putting it back together. In retrospect, I should have taken the time to remove and safe the pistol, fix the holster properly, then make ready. But in the heat and with everyone on the line waiting on me, I chose the shortcut and with the extra weight of the pistol, fumbled it.

Unfortunately, the drop on the concrete busted the plastic piece that retains the pistol, so I'm going to have to send it back for repair. oh well. live and learn.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Thanks for the holster name. Yeah, you looked like you had 4 thumbs on one hand right then....
Looking forward to your next trip to class. No more dropped shots at 50...

 

[taliv]

hey Pat, hopefully you're still perusing the threads around here, as I can't login to the alumni, 10-8, m4c, etc forums yet.... but I have a question for you too. What's the name of that sling that you passed around the 1st day. The one that with the stretchable portion at the end, like a bungie cord covered in some cloth? if that wasn't a single-point sling, which one of those were you demonstrating? I can't remember. (I am a lefty)

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Yeah, i am not often on this forum...
That was a CSM Tactical Single Point. Mike MacMillan is the real deal and it is a great sling. The one that some of us were using is the Viling Tactics (Kyle Lamb) VTAC sling- easily the best of the 2 Point slings.
Did you register with Alumni yet? I didn't see you name on the "approve" list.

 

[taliv]

yes, I did register a few days ago, and sent a note to info@eag... per your instructions in the class (or my recollection of them). I'll do it again in just a second in case it didn't work the first time.

thanks for the sling info!


edit: i just tried to log in and it said i wasn't approved yet. and i tried to register again (username taliv, but with my real name as display name) and it said the username was taken, so i'm pretty sure my initial registration is in there

 

[BOONER]

Pat is a great trainer.

vtac gets my nod after Pat, put one in my hands of late.

and after talking to kyle i replaced several BFGLAV slings with VTAC padded versions.

Thanks Again Pat (Steve from MI)