Ohen Cepel
Member
I like the Surefire plugs (with small pin removed to allow some hearing) under electronic muffs.
Or, best it to get a suppressor
Or, best it to get a suppressor
Ear Plugs inside of Ear Muffs - good idea?
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OptimusPrime
Member
Even cheap plugs are very effective when doubled-up. I use the foam throw-away ones under an old pair of muffs I have and they work extremely well together. Better for me than spending a lot of money on fancy muffs. YMMV.
I also insist that my girls do the same now so they get into the habit. Something I wish that someone had taught me forever ago.
I also insist that my girls do the same now so they get into the habit. Something I wish that someone had taught me forever ago.
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mikemyers
Member
Comparison Chart, from Howard Leight
Electronic ear mufffs.... the last time I looked, and the reason I bought the brand and model I did, was because of the rating.
For a comparison of Howard Leight hearing protection, go to http://www.howardleight.com/selector
For ear plugs, the highest NRR rating for any of the Howard Leight earplugs is only 27, not nearly as good as what's available in ear muffs. If I'm getting these in addition to ear muffs, and if I select only ear plugs with a NRR of 26 or 27, there only a few choices left.
Electronic ear mufffs.... the last time I looked, and the reason I bought the brand and model I did, was because of the rating.
For a comparison of Howard Leight hearing protection, go to http://www.howardleight.com/selector
Select both ear-plugs and ear-muffs, and other factors as desired
On the small "chart" at the right, click on what you're interested in, or simply "select all".
Click "Compare".
The best NRR protection I could find for ear muffs was "30", so I clicked on "remove" for all the others, leaving only Leightning L3, Thunder T3, and Leightning Hi-V". None of the electronic ear muffs had this high a reading, so I gave up on buying electronic muffs.On the small "chart" at the right, click on what you're interested in, or simply "select all".
Click "Compare".
For ear plugs, the highest NRR rating for any of the Howard Leight earplugs is only 27, not nearly as good as what's available in ear muffs. If I'm getting these in addition to ear muffs, and if I select only ear plugs with a NRR of 26 or 27, there only a few choices left.
Sa-tevr
Member
My day job involves working around jet engines and getting tested every year. I double plug at work and at the range with the highest dB rating gear I can find, usually -33dB foam plugs with -30dB ear muffs. I use hot-rodded David Clarks at work that have silicon filled ear pads, double foam and are lined with plumbers putty. The old engines were loud enough that it was painful to open your mouth around them.
The pistol competitions I shoot at have pretty good PA systems, so double plugging isn't a problem for most of us that don't wear hearing aids.
I also tend to carry the foam plugs with me to help if I'm caught at a loud movie or kids sport event, as I really hate to have my ears ring. I've got 30 years of hearing test results and they never get better.
The pistol competitions I shoot at have pretty good PA systems, so double plugging isn't a problem for most of us that don't wear hearing aids.
I also tend to carry the foam plugs with me to help if I'm caught at a loud movie or kids sport event, as I really hate to have my ears ring. I've got 30 years of hearing test results and they never get better.
Sa-tevr
Member
I thought this was interesting:
On the 3m Hearing Protection gear website they had this note with a set of ear muffs.
Approximately 5 dB additional protection when worn with earplugs
I'll still take a 5 dB improvement.
On the 3m Hearing Protection gear website they had this note with a set of ear muffs.
Approximately 5 dB additional protection when worn with earplugs
I'll still take a 5 dB improvement.
kBob
Member
I double up with foam under electronic muffs when other folks are about. I turn up the volume of my electronic muffs so I can hear through the foam plugs with the electronic muffs on. No problems hearing range commands or start buzzers or even normal conversations.
Just to make folks wonder. I had a less than 10 percent disability from the VA. I was told my hearing loss would get worse with time and to expect it to do so. This meant I got a Service Connected disability card and so moved to the head of the line at the VA hospital. No money or anything and if my family made "too much" money I had to pay for using the VA for any issue other than the hearing. Still a one hour wait beat a four hour wait all to heck.
Couple of years back after I had stopped using the VA (they charged more for non Service connected problems than the local docs and hospitals based on my then new family income) for several years I got a notice to come in for testing. According to the new test I had no hearing loss and my less than 10 percent was pulled as was my Service connected card.
A month later I took a series of tests at a hospital in town with a great reputation nationally in hearing issues. They knew nothing of my history but after the tests asked "Were you ever around Artillery or other explosions? You have extreme hearing loss in all the areas we would expect to find for such exposure."
Ain't the VA great?
Meanwhile I get frustrated when I have to tell folks "I am sorry, but could you face me when you are talking?" or "I am sorry but I do not hear well in crowds." or "I am sorry but can you tell me what your little girl is saying, nothing wrong with her or the way she speaks but her voice is too high for me to hear."
I double up because I learned that first of all sometimes you make a head movement that breaks the seal on head phones. When this happens it is much like not having them at all. Doubling up means I still get protected. Also sometimes the muffs are so uncomfortable that when the range goes "cold" it is still 104 degrees and 95 percent humidity in Central Florida and you take off your head phones to let the sweat pour off the sides of your head and ears, and invariably someone will start shooting before you get them back on. In that case the foam plugs still protect you.
-kBob
Just to make folks wonder. I had a less than 10 percent disability from the VA. I was told my hearing loss would get worse with time and to expect it to do so. This meant I got a Service Connected disability card and so moved to the head of the line at the VA hospital. No money or anything and if my family made "too much" money I had to pay for using the VA for any issue other than the hearing. Still a one hour wait beat a four hour wait all to heck.
Couple of years back after I had stopped using the VA (they charged more for non Service connected problems than the local docs and hospitals based on my then new family income) for several years I got a notice to come in for testing. According to the new test I had no hearing loss and my less than 10 percent was pulled as was my Service connected card.
A month later I took a series of tests at a hospital in town with a great reputation nationally in hearing issues. They knew nothing of my history but after the tests asked "Were you ever around Artillery or other explosions? You have extreme hearing loss in all the areas we would expect to find for such exposure."
Ain't the VA great?
Meanwhile I get frustrated when I have to tell folks "I am sorry, but could you face me when you are talking?" or "I am sorry but I do not hear well in crowds." or "I am sorry but can you tell me what your little girl is saying, nothing wrong with her or the way she speaks but her voice is too high for me to hear."
I double up because I learned that first of all sometimes you make a head movement that breaks the seal on head phones. When this happens it is much like not having them at all. Doubling up means I still get protected. Also sometimes the muffs are so uncomfortable that when the range goes "cold" it is still 104 degrees and 95 percent humidity in Central Florida and you take off your head phones to let the sweat pour off the sides of your head and ears, and invariably someone will start shooting before you get them back on. In that case the foam plugs still protect you.
-kBob
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mikemyers
Member
I guess it can make sense. If I had a dollar, and someone took away 90% of my money, I'd be left with a dime. If then another person took 90% of what's left, I'd be left with 9 cents. Either person, without the other, would leave me with a dime, but with both working together, I'm left with only a penny less than the dime.
Can anyone say if it works this way with hearing protection? How big a difference does it make wearing both, compared to only wearing ear muffs?
sage5907
Member
For the past 2 years I have been using ear plugs with my ear muffs and I really like the result. Can't believe I never didn't make a habit of it before. I discovered that Wal*Mart has a brand called Mack's Ear Plugs that work better than anything I have tried. They're better than anything I have found at the shooting stores. I use them to shoot, run a chain saw and mow the lawn. I twist them to make them smaller when I push them in the ear and they expand to fit the ear canal and they stay put.
Safetychain
Member
My hearing is already pretty well shot so I try to be as protected as I can. I use Walker electronic muffs over foam earplugs. I used to use the Harbor freight electronics but they only have a mike on one side of the head so you lose the stereo effect. As for the desirability of hearing the RO or your wife, I turn up the volume on the muffs such that you can hear the surrounding sounds through the earplugs but when over the 85db or so cutoff, you have the full double protection. As for that occasional extremely loud retorts, I kind of think that its not necessarily what you are hearing but its your whole body feeling the concussion. The double works well for me.
tcj
Member
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I shoot mostly outdoors only using the Leight electronic muffs. When shooting rifles I will double up with foam ear plugs both to reduce the sound from my rifle and anyone else...especially when firing 30 cals.
I will also double up anytime that I do shoot indoors even @ a 22 only range.
The muffs only work well for me with all pistol cal's outdoors including 357 mag & 44 mag.
I will also double up anytime that I do shoot indoors even @ a 22 only range.
The muffs only work well for me with all pistol cal's outdoors including 357 mag & 44 mag.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Wearing double protection does help, but doesn't actually "double protection" it really does less than you'd think. At least less than I'd have thought.
For example a 26-dB plug and a 34-dB muff does not yield 60-dB reduction, but only 41 dB. Which is still a significant reduction, just less than I'd expected.
If I'm going to be shooting a lot, say over 100 rounds I double, if I'm just blasting through a mag or two for function checking I'll just grab plugs or muffs but generally not both.
I can't think of any negative, other than not being able to hear the RO which Rc mentioned. But I shoot on my own land so I don't have to worry about hearing a RO.
For example a 26-dB plug and a 34-dB muff does not yield 60-dB reduction, but only 41 dB. Which is still a significant reduction, just less than I'd expected.
If I'm going to be shooting a lot, say over 100 rounds I double, if I'm just blasting through a mag or two for function checking I'll just grab plugs or muffs but generally not both.
I can't think of any negative, other than not being able to hear the RO which Rc mentioned. But I shoot on my own land so I don't have to worry about hearing a RO.
Coyote3855
Member
I assist with NRA Basic Pistol Classes, so it's important to have protection and be able to hear range commands and student questions. I have custom ear plugs from an audiologist and some good electronic muffs. I don't like the foam rollup ear plugs as there is the potential to transfer powder residue into the ear canal if you take the plugs out then reinsert during a shooting session.
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mikemyers
Member
Coyote3855, wouldn't that apply to any ear plugs, not just foam? Based on what you write, shouldn't people use "single use" ear plugs, that are sold in quantity?
Nicky Santoro
Member
Ear Plugs inside of Ear Muffs - good idea?
Can't hurt. Better safe than sorry. That being said, years ago I spent more than a bit of time behind an M60 and a .50 M2. I don't remember thinking it was all that loud. I didn't have a hearing problem then and I don't now almost 50 years later.
FWIW
YMMV
Can't hurt. Better safe than sorry. That being said, years ago I spent more than a bit of time behind an M60 and a .50 M2. I don't remember thinking it was all that loud. I didn't have a hearing problem then and I don't now almost 50 years later.
FWIW
YMMV
nvdwarrior
Member
And from an old Huey pilot comes this on ear plugs
One of the most painful days in my Army flying career came when they disqualified me from flying my old Hueys because I had crossed the hearing threshold for loss in certain freq's. Add to my previous history of Artillery during the late 60's, we never wore earplugs. Well, the Army has ways of getting blood out of a stone. The answer to my hearing loss was how I lost it in the first place. Even wearing a flight helmet with ear cushions, a lot of high frequency stuff still damages your hearing through the mastoid bone, or the back part of your ear. The army says "Wear earplugs" inside the helmet ear cushions and you can fly old timer. Well, it was a bitch to understand the spoken word at first, more volume to the radio...and eventually...wearing plugs inside, of the proper type (flange) and I suffered no further loss. Amazing. So after retiring...now I shoot shotgun, my M1 Garand and of course the old .45. All with hearing protection on. Plugs inside are a great idea. They do help prevent hearing loss.
One of the most painful days in my Army flying career came when they disqualified me from flying my old Hueys because I had crossed the hearing threshold for loss in certain freq's. Add to my previous history of Artillery during the late 60's, we never wore earplugs. Well, the Army has ways of getting blood out of a stone. The answer to my hearing loss was how I lost it in the first place. Even wearing a flight helmet with ear cushions, a lot of high frequency stuff still damages your hearing through the mastoid bone, or the back part of your ear. The army says "Wear earplugs" inside the helmet ear cushions and you can fly old timer. Well, it was a bitch to understand the spoken word at first, more volume to the radio...and eventually...wearing plugs inside, of the proper type (flange) and I suffered no further loss. Amazing. So after retiring...now I shoot shotgun, my M1 Garand and of course the old .45. All with hearing protection on. Plugs inside are a great idea. They do help prevent hearing loss.
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mikemyers
Member
Curious - am I wrong in assuming that people in the armed forces use hearing and eye protection now, and years ago? I imagine if you go back far enough, nobody wore any kind of protection. I assume that by the time WW II came along, and especially afterward, people were issued what they needed..... but that's just a guess.
I do get a hearing test now on a yearly basis, and got tired of saying "What???" so often, so now I've got hearing aids, and have just ordered ear plugs this morning. The closest I've ever been to "combat" is movies and books - but all I've read about hearing loss is stories of soldiers who wrote that they couldn't hear anything after a bomb went off, or something like that, and gradually their hearing came back. Apparently the real hearing loss doesn't happen until many years later.....
I'm probably not the only one in these forums who didn't REALLY understand any of this, until a few people here started talking about it. I used to think that ear muffs and plugs were all the same, all did the same thing, and you just needed to remember to use one or the other. Until then, I thought my old red ear muffs (you can see them in the movie, The Island, filmed at Tamiami Range in Miami, around 1980) were still perfectly suitable. Had I not been reading a lot of things here, I'd probably still be using those old muffs, assuming they were still quite fine.
I do get a hearing test now on a yearly basis, and got tired of saying "What???" so often, so now I've got hearing aids, and have just ordered ear plugs this morning. The closest I've ever been to "combat" is movies and books - but all I've read about hearing loss is stories of soldiers who wrote that they couldn't hear anything after a bomb went off, or something like that, and gradually their hearing came back. Apparently the real hearing loss doesn't happen until many years later.....
I'm probably not the only one in these forums who didn't REALLY understand any of this, until a few people here started talking about it. I used to think that ear muffs and plugs were all the same, all did the same thing, and you just needed to remember to use one or the other. Until then, I thought my old red ear muffs (you can see them in the movie, The Island, filmed at Tamiami Range in Miami, around 1980) were still perfectly suitable. Had I not been reading a lot of things here, I'd probably still be using those old muffs, assuming they were still quite fine.
Sheepdog1968
Member
I almost always wear in ear plugs and then electronic ear muffs. I often keep the electronic ones off and can still hear cease fire without an issue. In firearms classes the electronic ear muffs are on. I'm quite happy with the setup.
ljnowell
Member
When I'm RO'ing a Bullseye Match I wear just my electronic ears because I want to be able to hear anything that may happen. When it's my turn to step up to the line I put in plugs and regular non-electronic muffs. I want everything blocked out but my thoughts and heartbeat.
I always wear both plugs and muffs (except plugs only on sporting clay course - mounting issues with muffs).
Reasoning is maximizing reduction. Note as others have stated, the NRR is not additive. This is partly due to the amount of sound that is transmitted to the inner ear through the head. (Maybe I should wear a helmet too)
Other reason is I don't know when others are going to start shooting on other ranges. I always insert plugs before I leave my car and don't remove them until I leave the range.
Inexpensive, disposable foam plugs are rated for 33dB and can be reused if kept clean. Note that the NRR is based on how well the plugs are inserted. Also, the advertised rating does take into account the potential "difficulty" of insertion.
Sticking them in you ear is not enough. They have to be compressed, inserted deeply and allowed to expand... A pet peeve of mine is seeing ear plugs just hanging in someone's ear... But, I'm not for judging others...
Reasoning is maximizing reduction. Note as others have stated, the NRR is not additive. This is partly due to the amount of sound that is transmitted to the inner ear through the head. (Maybe I should wear a helmet too
)Other reason is I don't know when others are going to start shooting on other ranges. I always insert plugs before I leave my car and don't remove them until I leave the range.
Inexpensive, disposable foam plugs are rated for 33dB and can be reused if kept clean. Note that the NRR is based on how well the plugs are inserted. Also, the advertised rating does take into account the potential "difficulty" of insertion.
Sticking them in you ear is not enough. They have to be compressed, inserted deeply and allowed to expand... A pet peeve of mine is seeing ear plugs just hanging in someone's ear... But, I'm not for judging others...
Plugs under muffs are what the well informed shooter uses. I bet that was recommended when you were asking about earmuffs originally anyway.
As you pointed out, the pads on muffs wear out and they need to be replaced after enough use. Another thing that diminishes the protection provided by muffs are large ear pieces for safety glasses. If they gap the pads the muffs aren't providing the protection you want them to provide.
I always use electronic muffs and plugs under them. I use the highest rated of each I can. I use small wire or strap eye protection to keep the pads well sealed against my head and I don't allow hats to interfere with the seal of the earmuff pads. That approach provides the best protection for hearing.
As you pointed out, the pads on muffs wear out and they need to be replaced after enough use. Another thing that diminishes the protection provided by muffs are large ear pieces for safety glasses. If they gap the pads the muffs aren't providing the protection you want them to provide.
I always use electronic muffs and plugs under them. I use the highest rated of each I can. I use small wire or strap eye protection to keep the pads well sealed against my head and I don't allow hats to interfere with the seal of the earmuff pads. That approach provides the best protection for hearing.
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Evil-Twin
member
there is no down side of more protection... I wear plugs and muffs on every high energy range.. on the 22 range I wear just muffs.
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mikemyers
Member
Yes, it was recommended, and I think you were the one who explained all this the best. That earlier discussion pointed me to several brands, and as I recall, nobody disliked the Howard Leight earmuffs, and all I heard/read was good reviews. I should have started using both at that time.
I went to the range this morning, and bought a single set of Howard Leight ear plugs ($ 1.00). As described above, roll them up between two fingers, push into the ear, and allow them to expand to fill the space around them. Wearing those under my Howard Leight ear muffs made a very enjoyable difference. Not only was everyone else's gun a lot quieter, but so was my own gun!
I noticed while I was reloading that I could still here people talking behind me, and for that matter, I could still hear the person behind the sales counter as he was talking to me after putting the hearing protection on.
I assume that the ear muffs cut out most of the sound, and what little remained was just further reduced by the ear plugs.
I like the combination very much! There was zero discomfort.
arspeukinen
Member
Use plugs under active hearing muffs. Great if the guy next to you has a .338 or a muzzle brake.
nvdwarrior
Member
Mike the Army as all the services have very stringent rules for wearing hearing protection. It started in the late 1970's when they realized the large numbers of veterans who were getting out and applying for hearing loss compensation. It isn't worth much and does not even get you full price hearing aids but better than nothing. In my Aviation unit we began annual hearing evaluations during the annual flight physical. That is where they started picking up the history to the individuals loss of hearing if in the flying business. They actually know that with full hearing protection, someone who flies helicopters will have a hearing deficit in 15 years. You can't wear plugs all of the time and YES people still hate wearing them. In the artillery, we used to put cigarette butt filters in our ears to stop the pounding headaches...didn't do a damn thing for hearing protection. As they say, an ounce of protection. I am a total supporter of the type you have fitted to YOUR ear by a hearing specialist. Every ear canal has its own little turns and nooks that allow noise to bypass. Buy one pair and hook them to your range bag, never to be lost!
Zaydok Allen
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You know, as I was moving my stuff from one house to another today,I was thinking about this thread. I started wondering if I wasn't doing enough to protect my hearing, given my fondness for hand held nuclear weapons.
I wandered back in to the thread and noted this comment from pintler.
I have often pondered this idea, but never wanted to spend the money for good electronic muffs. Then I thought about the incredible annoyance I would have to endure if I lost significant hearing, or developed tinnitus. My hearing is my most attuned and most valued sense. I have always been able to hear the tiniest of details in music or tell who has entered my office by the jingle of their keys.
The idea that I wouldn't spend money to protect something as valuable as my hearing now sounds idiotic and absurd to me. I've decided to listen to you long time shooters and head your wisdom. I will be buying some quality electro muffs ASAP.
So, recommendations on a good value pair? Please share.
I wandered back in to the thread and noted this comment from pintler.
I have often pondered this idea, but never wanted to spend the money for good electronic muffs. Then I thought about the incredible annoyance I would have to endure if I lost significant hearing, or developed tinnitus. My hearing is my most attuned and most valued sense. I have always been able to hear the tiniest of details in music or tell who has entered my office by the jingle of their keys.
The idea that I wouldn't spend money to protect something as valuable as my hearing now sounds idiotic and absurd to me. I've decided to listen to you long time shooters and head your wisdom. I will be buying some quality electro muffs ASAP.
So, recommendations on a good value pair? Please share.
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