Early 1911 ambi safetys

[crestoncowboy]

What is the earlier ambi safety in a 1911 you know of. Most likely custom one off guns.

Watching a movie where the main character had an anachronistic 1911 got me thinking about early custom 1911s . I know Clyde Barrow had some modified 1911s so people were modifying them. Any verified ambis that early?

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

Detonics ! late 79 -mid eighties

 

[crestoncowboy]

Detonics ! late 79 -mid eighties

Thats factory. I'm guessing surely some well connected person had one custom 40 or so years before that. Lol

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

Thats factory. I'm guessing surely some well connected person had one custom 40 or so years before that. Lol

Detonics wasn't factory at that time or at any time. They we're a contract full gunsmithing firearms shop. making small quantities and most by contract pieces / elements into firearms. I should profess Detonics were MY first introduction to ambi-safety on a 1911 platform.

 

[derek45]

Swenson

Pachmaryr

 

[CapnMac]

Depends on whether you can tolerate having a non-removable safety or not.
If you don't care, you can silver solder a lever on the starboard side and probably only have to woory about clearing (or trimming) the grip scale on that side to suit.

Now, to get a removable ambi safety you run into the issue all the ambis have on a 1911, finding a way to keep them coupled up. There are el cheapo ones out there, that just have a screw into the hinge pin. The better examples use at least a half-lap, with a screw through the lap.

I know I have heard about LH "conversion" safeties (same as the RH, but, just inserted right-to-left) from "back in the day" but have never seen one.

And, it's a strang notion in these, our 'modern' times, but not everything was recorded, indexed, and preserved for posterity. This can vex those of us wanting to go look for answers, either obvious or obscured.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Depends on whether you can tolerate having a non-removable safety or not.
If you don't care, you can silver solder a lever on the starboard side and probably only have to woory about clearing (or trimming) the grip scale on that side to suit.

Now, to get a removable ambi safety you run into the issue all the ambis have on a 1911, finding a way to keep them coupled up. There are el cheapo ones out there, that just have a screw into the hinge pin. The better examples use at least a half-lap, with a screw through the lap.

I know I have heard about LH "conversion" safeties (same as the RH, but, just inserted right-to-left) from "back in the day" but have never seen one.

And, it's a strang notion in these, our 'modern' times, but not everything was recorded, indexed, and preserved for posterity. This can vex those of us wanting to go look for answers, either obvious or obscured.

I'm not wanting one. I have a few 1911 and don't even know if mine have an ambi.... I'm right handed and not a 1911 fan anyway. Just curious as I was aware that dillinger and barrow both had guns modified by smith's in the 30s. Just curious as to the earliest known ambi on a 1911.

I agree about the lack of some things being documented but guns are pretty long lasting. I've seen guns that belonged to people who died before anyone on this site was a subtle stir in their pappy. So they do tend to be pretty well documented. In many cases you can still use them. Ive seen Lincolns rifle, a Schofield from little big horn, and a few of Teddy Roosevelts rifles. Surely one of the rich prohibition era guys was a southpaw and had a good smith.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What is the earlier ambi safety in a 1911 you know of. Most likely custom one off guns.

The earliest I remember is the one on the Swenson custom 1911...I thought Pachmaryr used a version of the Swenson.

Early ambi safeties were prone to wear at the joint between the two sides. There's a lot of hand work and welding involved in fitting one so they were fairly uncommon. Swenson was the first custom smith to to use the foot/tab on the right side under the grip panel to retain the thumb safety

The best ambidextrous thumb safety, for the 1911, is currently the EGW

 

[CapnMac]

Surely one of the rich prohibition era guys was a southpaw and had a good smith.

Dunno, southpaws are 15-17% of the whole population, and "rich" prohibition types were likely maybe 1-2% of all the folk involved.

(Note famous/infamous prohibition types don't always intersect with "rich"--Bonnie & Clyde were pretty notorious, but often left robberies with only US$12-15.)

Back in those days, the 'point' of being rich was to hire guys with guns, not carry them yourself.

The trade of the gunsmith has changed over my lifetime, and being an artisan has only started replacing "gun plumber" since about the 80s. About when we started to see "melting" being a hip new feature smiths offered.

Dunno--it's still an interesting thing to talk about.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I remember the ones with the retention finger that required that material is relieved from the grip. I also remember the ones that required a roll pin to hold it in place.
Then there were the ones that looked like a tongue and groove that required fitting.

My favorite was the type used by Colt, which was from Hermann Muensch (sp).

 

[dfariswheel]

I think the first semi-production was Armand Swenson's. I bought a very early one in the early 1970's. This had the paddle that fit under the right side grip. Most makers that followed copied the Swenson paddle method of retention.
The weakness of the Swenson is that fitting is critical or the right side will tend to partially come out and disengage from the left side.

Next up as I recall was the King's, which used a slotted hammer pin and has been copied by several others. The King's right side was much smaller then the left side.

The Colt type used a slotted sear pin. I'm not sure who made them for Colt but they were last made by Muescnic?? The Colt type was popular because the right side was a mirror image of the left side.

Today the best of them are made by Wilson, EGW, and Brown.
These use a slotted hammer pin and a greatly stronger method of joining the two halves.

 

[JohnMc]

One thing to keep in mind is that back around 1911 and for some decades later, southpaws were strongly encouraged to suck it up and learn to use right-handed stuff. Most did, as far as I understand.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Today the best of them are made by Wilson, EGW, and Brown.
These use a slotted hammer pin and a greatly stronger method of joining the two halves.

Made me go out and look. I had a Brown added when I converted it from a duty carry to a competition piece. My 1911 smith relieved, ground down, the left paddle to comfortably clear the knuckle of my index finger

 

[crestoncowboy]

Dunno, southpaws are 15-17% of the whole population, and "rich" prohibition types were likely maybe 1-2% of all the folk involved.

(Note famous/infamous prohibition types don't always intersect with "rich"--Bonnie & Clyde were pretty notorious, but often left robberies with only US$12-15.)

Back in those days, the 'point' of being rich was to hire guys with guns, not carry them yourself.

The trade of the gunsmith has changed over my lifetime, and being an artisan has only started replacing "gun plumber" since about the 80s. About when we started to see "melting" being a hip new feature smiths offered.

Dunno--it's still an interesting thing to talk about.

Bonnie and clyde had enough ammo and guns to make up several people's salary in their brand new v8 Ford (stolen but 9/10 of the law they say) clyde had custom work on his 1911 as well as mags welded together for his bar by a Smith. Dillinger had a pretty elaborate 38 super 1911 custom made (ridiculous fully auto with extended mag, compensator and foregrip) done by a Smith

One thing to keep in mind is that back around 1911 and for some decades later, southpaws were strongly encouraged to suck it up and learn to use right-handed stuff. Most did, as far as I understand.

My buddy was a leftie and his dad would backhand him every time he used his left hand to eat at the dinner table. Lol. Thought he would beat him right handed i suppose.

It didn't take.

 

[JohnMc]

My buddy was a leftie and his dad would backhand him every time he used his left hand to eat at the dinner table. Lol. Thought he would beat him right handed i suppose.

It didn't take.

My mom is a southpaw, nuns whacked her fingers with rulers. It didn't take with her either.

Thankfully, I got the proper, or right, handedness.

 

[crestoncowboy]

My mom is a southpaw, nuns whacked her fingers with rulers. It didn't take with her either.

Thankfully, I got the proper, or right, handedness.

I had an oddly disproportionate number of left handed friends. Of my 10 or so closest 5 are lefties. Only the ones dad tried to "fix it" lol. One had scholarships for baseball and it was actually a plus to be a left handed pitcher.

Only one that I ever noticed had anything made for a leftie though. And he didn't until he was in his 30s. Before that he used right handed guns and bows and vast majority of his are still right hand. I have a couple of his left handed guns in my safe. One is a bolt action 25-06.

 

[CapnMac]

done by a Smith

Having seen some of those, "we" need to be careful to not apply our 'modern' meaning of "smith" to what was done "back then." Some of that "custom" work was not much better than blacksmith work. B&C's "gang" robbed a couple of National Guard Armories, so they were "rich" in firearms and ammo, but, they had a bad habit of holding up Grange banks, and Savings & Loan thrifts with only a few hundred in cash reserves, and they often only left with the contents of the teller tills, which ran to about $40 in those days.

Clyde rather famously modified his stolen BAR not by taking to a 'smith,' but by applying a hacksaw to it himself. Dillinger's "full auto" just had a bubba-ed Disconector, the equal of a "glock switch" today.

Now, for custom work, the then brand-new FBI had Thompson build them a tommy gun in 38super, if only the one. Bannerman and his Island was the site of any number of adventures in gun-smithery.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The advantage of the Muensch/Colt type was an extended pin that was slotted to secure the left safety in place. No need to modify the grip.

 

[tark]

southpaws were strongly encouraged to suck it up and learn to use right-handed stuff.

My mom is a southpaw, nuns whacked her fingers with rulers.

My Mother was born in 1906, left handed by birth. She was not allowed, in grade school, to stay that way. she lived her life and passed away a right handed person.

 

[herrwalther]

A recently departed WWII vet I talked to often once told me he fashioned an ambi safety when deployed to Europe. He basically welded a piece of tabbed metal onto to the right side that he could activate with his left hand. He was the only lefty in the unit so it was a "for him" modification. He was with the 82nd. Airborne units then and now pride themselves on being able to fabricate or scrounge anything they need to fight.

He is also the same veteran to confirm the existence of "sweetheart" grips for the 1911 in person for me. He didn't have the clear grip panels or the firearm in his room, but he did still have the pictures. Cut into obvious 1911 shape.

 

[JohnMc]

My Mother was born in 1906, left handed by birth. She was not allowed, in grade school, to stay that way. she lived her life and passed away a right handed person.

My mother was born during WW II. According to family lore, a doctor found out, then yelled at the nuns and got them to stop the ruler whacking.

 

[drobs]

Being left handed, I had a Kings Ambi-Safety and a Videcki Speed Trigger added to my Colt series 70 Government Model 45 in 1990.

I too often wonder about left handers and ambi safeties back then. I figure they would just carry em on 1/2 cock with a loaded chamber and strap of leather around the grip safety. Safety 3rd!

There was a Texas Ranger that carried a pair of 1911's in that manner back in that time period. I'll have to dig for the picture.

Note the ambi or right side safety:

Colt 1911 Pistols - Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum

Pair of 1931 Colt Model 1911A1 Pistols owned by Capt. M. T. Gonzaullas Pair of Colt Standard 1911A1 Government Model, Commercial Conversion Pistols Gift of Stan L. White and Sara White Morrison in Memory of Carroll A. Green and Harroll H. (Pet) Green/ Cat.# 2920.001-.002 Photo courtesy of Robert...

www.texasranger.org

Manual T. Gonzaullas was in that roaring 1920's time period. You can read about him here:

Manuel T. Gonzaullas - Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum

Manuel Trazazas “Lonewolf” Gonzaullas 1891-1977 Manuel Trazazas Gonzaullas was born in 1891 in Cádiz, Spain to a Spanish father and Canadian mother who were naturalized U.S. citizens. He served as a Mexican army major at age 20, worked five years for the U.S. Treasury Department, and joined the...

www.texasranger.org

 

[drobs]

Another Texas Ranger with a pair of 1911's:

R. A. Crowder, Chief of the Texas Rangers

Robert A. "Bob" Crowder - Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum

Robert A. “Bob” Crowder 1901 – 1972 Robert Austin Crowder was born in Minden, Texas on January 29, 1901. After serving a hitch in the United State Marines, Crowder became a Dallas police patrolman in 1925. When the Texas Highway Department created the Highway Patrol, Crowder became one of the...

www.texasranger.org