Effectiveness of .32 ACP

[The_Shootist]

Was reading over the Thanksgiving holiday John Keegan's "The First World War" and came to the part where he briefly describes what started it all. Namely, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria and his wife Sophie.

Keegan says the assassin, Gavrilo Princip, was waiting for the Archduke's car "with his revolver". I thought - huh? I had always thought he was shot with a Browning 1903 semi-auto in .32 ACP (wonder if that gun or something like it is still made).

Did some research on the net and the article I read says a 1910 model of the auto-loader of that calibre, so maybe I was somewhat mistaken - but it still wasn't a revolver so I had the grim satisfaction of having found a small fault with Keegan's book.

Anyways, they were "one shot stops" if I can use that macabre description. Princip hit the Archduke in the neck and his wife in the stomach, both wounds proved eventually fatal. I imagine he fired all 7-8 rounds available but just got the two hits. Guess that emphasizes in a real world way the importance of shot placement (I suspect Princip wasn't using Cor-Bon or Hydra-Shoks)

Now, I don't mean to speak ill of the dead, but (from photos I saw of them) neither the Archduke and his wife were exactly members of Weightwatchers - they were both pretty big people and both only took one hit and it was fatal.
So maybe my P-32 isn't so feeble afterall.

Also, maybe to aid Keegan in the future in his research I'll email him (at the Imperial War College in Britain) the web address of the High Road

 

[strambo]

Cartridge effectiveness isn't about eventually proving to be fatal (at least in the case of HG defensive ammo) it is about stopping the threat.

These weren't "one shot stops" because the Duke and wife never started anything. They were minding their own business and a whacko shot them. If they were armed, adrenaline energized attackers and then shot by the .32, I doubt it would have been the same outcome because neither hit was a CNS shot. A .22 would have probably had the same outcome in this case...just 2 royal sheeple gettin' shot.

Did the book say if they were dead at the scene? Medical care wasn't too great back then either, so eventual fatality is a poor criteria of performance.

Not to say a .32 isn't worth carrying, this case doesn't prove it's effectiveness as a protection weapon against determined aggressors though.

 

[Chipperman]

If you research, there is some question about the gun that was used by Princip. Most people agree that it was a Browning 1900, but some people think it was a 1903. I've even seen one book claiming it was a 1910.

Most everyone agrees that it was .32 ACP from an auto, of Browning design.
They lived long enough to get out of there and back to the residence, but died shortly thereafter.

Interestingly, a bomb was thrown at the car prior to the shooting, and Ferdinand was able to deflect it. He was advised to abandon the car trip, but he insisted on going to the hospital to visit the people injured by the bomb. Imagine how different the world might be today, if he had chosed to just go home.
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"What is the good of your speeches? I come to Sarajevo on a visit, and I get bombs thrown at me. It is outrageous!"

Archduke Franz Ferdinand interrupting the Mayor's welcome speech at Sarajevo's city hall, 28 June 1914.

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[jc2]

I doubt seriously if we will ever be able to determine what weapon was used with any certainity. Keegan is a good, thorough historian. I would not be to quick to assume he is wrong.

The official Austrian report on the assasination indicates the weapon was a "Browning revolver." They obviously weren't as anal about official reports 90 years ago as we are not. I am unaware of any "Browning revolvers" so it could be a "Browning," or it could be a "revolver" but not both. FWIW, .32 calibre revolvers were quite common in that era. Webley and Bayard Pickert revolvers were chambered in .32 S&W. Revolvers chambered in .32 S&W Long (.32 Colt New Police) were common in Europe (many made in Spain). There is also the European .320 revolvers, The Swiss army handgun of that era was a 7.5 (almost .32) revolver. Then being Easter Europe and Russia's long involvement in the politics of the Balkans it could have easily been a Nagant (at the Austrians might have been loathe to point the finger at the Russians for political reasons). There were even a couple of Belgian made .32 calibre revolvers so it's not beyond reason that due to "Browning" being associated with FN and Belgian firearms that there was some confusion as to the manufacturer.

The bottom line remains because two people died after being shot with a .32 calibre handgun 90 years ago does make a case for the .32 as a defensive weapon. In fact, a little research would indicate the Archduke was alert and talking after being hit--he died later in the hospital (trauma care in the Balkans in the early 1900s was just up to trauma care in the in the US in the early 21st Century.

 

[The_Shootist]

.32?

Excellent post jc2! I was surprised that there was that kind of diversity of views as to the handgun make. I just assumed it was some sort of a Browning auto as the History Channel (Tales of the Gun - the "Infamous Guns" episode) supposedly showed the gun or copy of it.

As to the effectiveness of the .32, I agree its marginal. But both seem to have been hit in areas that today, with modern trauma care, might have been survivable (but they didn't survive in this case).

It just makes me think that the .32 may be an underrated SD cartridge. They might have died at the scene had Princip delivered more hits COM, rather than what appears to be too (un)lucky hits.

It makes me cringe at how different things might be today if Princip had been an even worse shot and missed with all rounds or hit them them in less lethal areas. :banghead:

 

[Onmilo]

I understand the weapon to be an F.N. Browning 1900 that came from an early Serbian Military contract.
As a close range personal defense cartridge the 7.65 Browning is as effective as anything else in the class and features less muzzle blast and greater control than the 9mm calibers and usually carries one or two additional cartridges in the magazine.
As a primary combat pistol cartrige it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Joe Demko]

Imagine how different the world might be today, if he had chosed to just go home.

It might be different, it might not. I tend to think not because the assassinations were just the trigger of WWI, not the cause. Some other incident would quite likely have still set things in motion.

 

[Black Snowman]

Lethality != stop. Many viruses and poisons are highly leathal on a per case basis but can take days, weeks or even years to kill. I'm not hitting an attacker with antrax to keep him from knifing me. The other guy being dead won't make me or my loved ones feel any better about me being dead.

Personally, I'd take a reliable 2 shot derringer in a powerful cartridge over 5 shots of a lesser round if I just couldn't carry anything bigger. YMMV and all that.

 

[MrMurphy]

It was either an FN 1900 or FN 1910, both designed by Browning.


.32s can be lethal. Better than a thrown rock, but it wouldn't be my pick for a primary gun caliber.
With a .32, even using JHPs, better aim well and prepare to possibly empty the whole mag into the guy.

 

[Nick96]

The .32 was considered to be an effective military, police & personal protection handgun round from the late 1800's to the 1960's. I have to wonder that if there was nothing but .32 caliber handguns around if the "one shot stop" and overall carnage inflicted by handguns would be significantly different than they are now with all the available calibers out there?

In most cases, a hard projectile entering the human body to a depth of a few inches is going to encourage the recipient to cease whatever it was they were doing that caused the projectile to be inserted into them in the first place.

 

[Onmilo]

All I can say about the .32 acp comes from personal experience.
If you shoot a vicious Dalmation in the top of the head with a .32acp fmj he will instantly die.
If your cop friend accidently shoots himself with a .32 fmj he will become instantly incapacitated but he will survive and spend six months dealing with the special humor of his brother officers.
I collect .32 acp pistols and really enjoy shooting them.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I have 2 .32s and one is my "everything" gun. It is what I use when I'm not wearing much clothing, it's what I grab and stuff in a back pocket when I can't take the time to conceal a .45. It certainly is NOT my first choice, but as most would say, it is better than going unarmed, and I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of it.

 

[buttrap]

from the serial numbers of the guns used including the one that killed the royals it was the 1910 model.

 

[Chipperman]

Pistol found that killed 8.5 million people
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | June 22, 2004 | KATE CONNOLLY


Posted on 06/22/2004 10:07:58 AM PDT by Chi-townChief


BERLIN -- The Browning pistol that killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand and sparked the crisis leading to World War I has been discovered gathering dust in a Jesuit community house in Austria.

The weapon is going on display in the Vienna Museum of Military History in time for the 90th anniversary of the assassination of the heir to the Austrian empire and his wife, Sophie. Gavrilo Princip, a student from Belgrade, fired seven shots as they were driven through Sarajevo on June 28, 1914.

The shooting led to World War I, which by one estimate resulted in 8.5 million deaths.

For decades the murder weapon, serial number 19074, was in the possession of a community of Jesuits in Styria, southern Austria. They inherited it from a close friend of the archduke and his wife.

A Jesuit priest, Anton Puntigam, gave the couple the last rites and later made public his intention of opening a museum in memory of the archduke. But the chaos of the war foiled his plans.

On the priest's death in 1926, the objects were offered to the archduke's family, which declined to take them. They remained out of sight until recent publicity about the 90th anniversary.

Daily Telegraph


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I'm a little skeptical about this. For years they have been questioning the validity of the serial number reports. Now a gun matching the report shows up. If the serial numbers in the report are correct, and this gun really does match and is original, then I guess it's authentic. If so, it would be a 1910 model. My personal feeling is that we will never know for sure.

The poor little pistol. If it had known that it alone was responsible for 8.5 million deaths, it probably would have misfired. I hope they have a trigger lock on it. You never know if it may jump up and kill a few million other people.

 

[greg531mi]

I defense of the 32 acp, I think with all calibers, shot placement is the key. Yes, if I had my choice, I would rather be shot with a 32 than a 45, but if it is a 45 in the shoulder or a 32 in the heart, I would slant more toward the 45. Too many out there can't shoot a 45 accurately...people don't get enough range time.
Put it this way, how many times have you heard of a shootout between a citzen and a perp? The perp is so surprised about their victim having a gun, they are running after just seeing a gun pointed at them!!!!
My 32 goes a lot of places where I cannot carry a regular size gun....

 

[ruger357]

I carry a Seecamp .32 all the time.