Effectiveness vs. Too Much Risk...

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BillyBobJoe83

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Hello to everyone. I'm new here but I've been reading on here for quite some time. My question may be somewhat involved I believe. Please bear with me as this is my first time writing here. I'm looking to get some HD ammo in .40 caliber. I've read on many forums and ammo reviews that a key factor to consider is the penetration of the round.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems that an effective round will have to penetrate well into a bad guy which also means it would penetrate several walls if I missed. Conversely, if I chose a round that is either frangible or less penetrative, the round is less likely to pentrate several walls if I were to miss but also means less penetration into a bad guy.

What is a reasonable balance of effectiveness or penetration without excessive risk should I miss?

Please note that I fully intend to practice and become proficient with my firearm. I have not yet received it due to the waiting period here in California.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
 
If you're worried about overpenetration through drywall, buy an AR-15. .223/5.56 has been demonstrated to penetrate less than 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP through drywall alone. And it will still tear up a bad guy.


That said, any effective defense round will go through at least two or three layers of drywall. Drywall simply isn't intended to be bullet resistant. This is why aiming is so important, and why one of the four cardinal rules of firearms safety is "Know your target, and what is beyond it."
 
The AR is one option, but if you are dead set on a handgun as your primary home defense weapon, then you already know what that means for penetration.

Any round that is expected to reasonably penetrate a human being will cut through multiple walls of the average home as if they aren't even there. My suggestion is twofold:

1. Get some quality training and then practice often in order to lessen the chance of missing the bad guy at all.
2. Find your most likely fields of fire and put up backstops. Things like dressers full of clothing and book cases placed between the wall and where the bad guy will most likely be will greatly slow down, if not completely stop a bullet.
 
Obviously no one wants to injure or kill an innocent person through firing a stray bullet or overpenetration. But in a case of self defense, where speed is essential to saving your own life or the life of an innocent person, the law recognizes that safety takes second place.

That being said, anyone carrying a gun or using one for home defense does need to consider those factors, and not to go by what someone else claims. I have seen claims not only that a 5.56mm will not penetrate a sheet of dry wall, but that a shotgun will not either. Both claims are nonsense, though often repeated.

That is why, in a home defense setting, it is necessary to know where your family members (and any guests) are before firing a shot. As in any case, make sure of your target, but even if you hit what you intend, overpenetration can be a problem.

Jim
 
Just hit what your aiming at. Get some training. Start off with simple CCW training and the basics, then maybe a local class.

Some classes travel to different states, some you have to fly in. Most are 3 days, some are a week.

Or try to get involved with IDPA sports. Cheaper than classes, alot of the same stuff.

.40 is a good defense round. 180 Ranger T or Rem Goldensabre will work well. 5.56 is nice for home defense.
 
Any pistol or rifle round can easily penetrate sheetrock/wallboard.

I'm always amazed when people bring up the myth that a 5.56 will penetrate wall materials less handily than any pistol caliber.

You can test this for yourself, or check out the original article at The Box O'Truth. 9mm, .45ACP, and 5.56 all penetrated 12 layers of sheetrock. Even a .22LR out of a pistol penetrated 6 sheets. In a related test, 5.56 frangible ammo still penetrated 8 layers. That's still a lot of walls.

In additional tests, 5.56 was the only round (of the above listed) to penetrate 12 sheets of 3/4" Pine.

I would suggest to the OP to choose a caliber and loading that he is comfortable with, and can consistently shoot well.
 
I had read somewhere, don't recall at the moment where, that a lighter grain bullet is less likely to over penetrate than a heavier one. Is that accurate? I was considering getting some 135 gr. Winchester Rangers. Also, I was intrigued by the Air Freedom rounds by Extreme Shock but was concerned that they might not penetrate enough if bad guy has on thick clothing. I do have a 12 ga. Mossberg and I'm getting the .40S&W here in about 2 weeks. I don't believe that a .223 rifle will be an option for me anytime soon as I really got my chops busted by her just to get these two firearms. Thank you again for your replies.
 
I've read on many forums and ammo reviews that a key factor to consider is the penetration of the round.

Penetration is second only to shot placement, of course, and the key is to get just enough, consistently, and put the rest of the bullet's energy into a wider wound track via expansion. The various manufacturers of home defense ammunition may publish metrics such as the penetration of various loads into calibrated ballistic gelatin, which is intended to simulate penetration in flesh, and there are various independent tests that do, as well, such as those published in websites such as http://www.brassfetcher.com.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems that an effective round will have to penetrate well into a bad guy which also means it would penetrate several walls if I missed. Conversely, if I chose a round that is either frangible or less penetrative, the round is less likely to pentrate several walls if I were to miss but also means less penetration into a bad guy.

Yes, but with one caveat...

What is a reasonable balance of effectiveness or penetration without excessive risk should I miss?

...unfortunately, it's not really that proportional, meaning that JHP (jacketed hollow-point) rounds that expand more and penetrate less in people, for example, will penetrate just as many walls as more penetrative rounds would. Only when you go to frangible rounds will penetration through walls be reduced, but then penetration through human targets will generally be inadequate. The reason is that JHP rounds really only work as intended when encountering a wet medium, such as flesh. What this means is that while you can reduce the risk of bullets passing all the way through your target and then through walls and bystanders, there is nothing you can do to mitigate the risk of misses by means of ammo selection, short of using frangible rounds.

The best advice for most people would be to decide on a depth of penetration through flesh that will give you a balance of effectiveness versus the odds of overpenetration in the case of a hit. Personally, I opt for a wide margin in penetration because maximum expansion only gives you so much of an advantage, some bad guys are really big these days, and I may have to shoot through something to get at them. I simply assume that every shot will overpenetrate, whether it's a hit or miss, and that I'd better not pull the trigger unless it is safe to do so (except for the bad guy). Others may (and do) feel differently.
 
Also, I was intrigued by the Air Freedom rounds by Extreme Shock

Seriously, a bad idea. If you are going to use a certain ammo for defense, you NEED it to work. If a round doesn't cycle reliably in your gun at the range, it may be frustrating but it's not a big deal. If your gun jams up when you need it to defend your life? That's a huge (ie. life threatening) problem. So whatever pistol you're using, make sure it'll fire your defense ammo perfectly before trusting your life with it.
As for how many rounds you should fire before trusting it, different people have different ways to test. I fire 100 rounds of really dirty range ammo, and then go through 100 rounds of the defense stuff. If it feeds/fires/ejects the defense stuff perfectly 100 times, the gun/ammo combo is good to go.

So, that being established, how many rounds of Extreme Shock (at $2 a shot) could you afford to fire to test out your gun? 100 rounds will cost you $200 in ammo. Yikes! I can do the same thing for $50 of ammo with Speer Gold Dots.

Another point, is that the extreme shock stuff is a marketing gimmick designed to play to new guys who don't know better, and to mall ninjas. Get a trusted and reliable premium defensive ammo from a trusted and reliable maker.
These tend to include (not a comprehensive list, just the ones off the top of my head):

Speer Gold Dot
Federal HST
Federal Hydrashock
Winchester Ranger
Remington Golden Saber


I think the best deal going in quality defensive .40cal ammo right now is either the HST or Gold Dot. At ~$0.50/round, you can get enough that you can ensure reliability, and they are among the standard accepted 'top choice' ammo for that purpose.
 
I had read somewhere, don't recall at the moment where, that a lighter grain bullet is less likely to over penetrate than a heavier one. Is that accurate?

Within the same caliber, that is generally true because lighter rounds tend to have less momentum, but you can't always rely on this because sometimes faster rounds penetrate certain types of barriers better (I don't know why, but I've seen it happen) and some manufacturers load their lighter rounds so much hotter that they might actually have more momentum than their heavier counterparts (not usually true, but I've seen this, too).

Personally, I tend to stick with heavier bullets not only because I actually favor penetration, but they also seem to be more "resilient" in some ways, such as being harder to deflect, are usually more pleasant to shoot because they have less blast and flash (which can be fun at the range but not so much for defensive purposes), and maintain their momentum and energy better out of short barrels in case I'd want to use them in a compact weapon.

In general, however, you should choose a load according to how it performs in actual tests rather than platitudes that while based on physical laws and observations cannot take into account everything about a particular load. I did both, actually, and picked a heavy round with measured performance that I like.

I was considering getting some 135 gr. Winchester Rangers.

If you're talking about product Q4368, the load designed for the Department of Homeland Security, then it's a rather light load designed for mild recoil and limited penetration (about 9"). In short, it's pretty weak for .40 S&W. Love'em or leave'em, the FBI recommends at least 12" of penetration for a round to be adequately effective, and I prefer more. I currently use the 180 grain Ranger Bonded load, which happens to be the same load used by the FBI (pure coincidence because they change their standard load all the time), but just about any other Ranger-T or Ranger Bonded load will do.

These days, Federal HST is the talk of the gun world because of its consistent expansion, and I've found that it performs well in other ways, too, in terms of penetration. I might switch but I've invested quite a bit in testing the reliability of Ranger Bonded in my M&P40, and although rare, HST seems to have more instances of feeding issues because of its super-wide hollow-point cavity (one key to its performance), so I'll stick with my current load for now.

Also, I was intrigued by the Air Freedom rounds by Extreme Shock but was concerned that they might not penetrate enough if bad guy has on thick clothing.

Extreme Shock is all self-proclaimed hype, and their bullets don't even work as designed, usually. One look at the packaging should tell you that. :barf:

I do have a 12 ga. Mossberg and I'm getting the .40S&W here in about 2 weeks. I don't believe that a .223 rifle will be an option for me anytime soon as I really got my chops busted by her just to get these two firearms. Thank you again for your replies.

Well, you're ahead of me so far, although I think I'm on the verge of getting approval for a shotgun and additional handguns. If not, then I'll just have to beg forgiveness because asking for permission is starting to cramp my style. :rolleyes:

What do you use in that Mossberg, anyway? Please don't tell me that it's birdshot.... ;)
 
If your desire is to minimize wall penetration then buy a shotgun and load it with bird shot.

The only frangible handgun ammunition I know of that's specifically designed to breakup in sheetrock is the MagSafe SWAT load. It is unreliable. Sometimes it breaks-up, sometimes it doesn't.
 
In a thin walled apartment, I'd use Glasier or Mag Safe or some frangible. I don't like that idea in autos, though, as I can't afford enough of the stuff to function test. Revolves, sure, and I'd load one of my revolvers with Glasier. JMHO, though. I don't like the risk of hurting an innocent bystander. I'd rather get shot, by the BG because my round was ineffective, or at least take that risk to hurting a neighbor/child next door, that sort of thing. Call me crazy, but I'd rather be dead than go to prison for 20 years for negligent homicide. Besides, the penetration freaks can't convince me that getting shot by a .357 magnum Glasier would be at all fun. I think it'd ruin the guy's day at the very least.

I do have a shotgun by the bed. It's loaded with 3 buck, though, as I don't live in an apartment.
 
Forgive me if I don't address everyone specifically. I am reading all of the posts and find them very insightful. I purchased a box of Hornady XTP 180 gr. JHP when I paid for the gun simply because I figured having some HD ammo was better than none. I was impressed with the reviews I found of the Ranger T-Series.

In my 12 ga. I have reduced recoil 00 buck and, as a last resort, slugs. My set up for that is 4 shells of 00 buck and 2 slugs. I figure if the 4 00 bucks don't take him down, then I need something heavier. I went with the low recoil for 2 reasons. Primary reason being to make it easier for the wife to handle if she were to ever need to shoot the 12 ga. Second is, and I could be wrong in this assumption, that the pellets would penetrate less through walls if they miss bad guy.

I agree that the "specialty" ammo is absurdly expensive which is why I wanted to know if it even remotely warrants the extra cost. Seems like it doesn't. In the various reviews of JHP rounds I've read, the expansion of the round is always pointed out. How critical is it to have "the" round that expands the most? I guess what I'm really asking is, do I lose much effectiveness in a JHP round if it isn't the one that expands the most?
 
A better way to phrase it would be, "is it possible for any projectile to be effective at defense without being capable of passing straight through the airy walls of a modern home?"

And you will come up with your answer, absolutely not.
 
It gets much scorn, but another gun I think might just be the answer to dry wall concerns is the Judge loaded with number 4 lead shot loads. Shoot for the face. It'll be close range. Maybe back 3 rounds up with 000 buck loads.

Go ahead and bash me for my opinion, but it makes sense to me. I don't own a Judge, don't live in apartments.
 
Here's the thing. It doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, one should resort to the most effective weapon available. Your main priority should be putting the bad guy down.

I have said many times, (but it seems like I have been saying it more lately,) get the idea of overpenetration out of your head. Of COURSE it will overpenetrate. If a projectile wouldn't easily penetrate 12" of human medium, why would you use it to save your life? And even if it didn't, do you think that ALL of your shots are going to hit? Statistics say otherwise. Yes, an AR with the correct ammo is less likely to go through AS MANY walls as most pistol bullets, but it's still going to go through some, particularly the ones that miss. Once you have accepted this, you stop worrying about how many walls it is going to go through, and start planning to minimize the likelihood that you will be shooting towards innocent people at all. Meaning, arrange your house, beds, bedrooms, and PLAN in such a way as to increase the likelihood that when you do shoot someone in your house, it will be a at a time and place that minimizes risk to others. You are responsible for everything that bullet hits, no matter what you use, but this will be a risk no matter what round you use.

There. Now you can quit worrying about overpenetration, and start planning to end the fight with as little fire as possible. This decreases the risk of unintended target damage, and is more likely to stop the bad guy before he has a chance to hurt you.

For me, my primary is a 870 loaded with #4 magnums and my backup (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine loaded with soft-point bullets. I regard this as less destructive than 00 buck and a Garand. (00 buck is fine, but I happen to have a stockpile of #4 because it's what I carry out in the desert.) The carbine is plenty effective, and easy for my wife to use indoors. She has no problem putting a lot of lead center of mass with it.
 
RE Mixing the load:

The general consensus here is that mixing the loads in your magazine isn't a great idea. Doing this is assuming that you know what the fight is going to be like, and you know what threat you are going to face. Just plan for the worst and keep it simple. Most of us agree that buckshot in the tube is best, and if you think there might be some reason you NEED slugs, keep a couple in the sidesaddle, pointing the opposite direction from the others, so you know which is which. Really, the only time I can see a slug being necessary would be if I had to shoot through the refrigerator or through a car door to hit someone. In the context of DEFENSIVE shooting, this is a bit of a stretch.

I would never trust my life to frangible ammo.
 
So the general consensus is to simply place my shots well thereby negating the issue of wall penetration. From there, arrange my furniture such that should I miss, the round will be stopped within a wall or two. Does this sound correct?

Also, can someone explain the relevance of the inches of penetration as it pertains to actual penetration into a bad guy? I read the 12" standard for the FBI above and was curious about it seeing as how most people aren't 12" thick... Forgive my ignorance in this respect but I haven't quite understood the direct correlation. Thank you again.
 
I'll tell you what I do to minimize the risk. I took the three or four most likely lanes of fire in my house, places like stairways, doorways, hallways, etc, and I walked through how and where I would clear my house, and I moved the beds in my kids rooms so that they would be out of the way. This risk is further minimized in that I have taught them that if there is ever something happening in the house at night, they need to roll under their beds. (This is an ongoing process, some of them are still young.) I hope to one day build Fort Deckard out in the sagebrush in such a way as to eliminate places where people sleep from all likely lanes of fire. The world isn't perfect, but you can always work to improve it.

The reason you want a projectile to penetrate at least 12", is that most people aren't 12" thick. You WANT that bullet to do damage from one side of him to the other, with as big of a wound channel as possible. A good shot that would hit the spine won't do much good if it doesn't have enough energy to reach it. The further it penetrates, the higher the likelihood it will hit something that will make the bad guy stop what he is doing. I don't want it stopping halfway. I want a premium hollowpoint to mushroom to at least 1.5 times the diameter of the projectile and go all the way through. I want as many pellets of buckshot to tear all the way through him creating multiple wound paths. The more wound paths, the greater the chance of incapacitation. Not complicated.

We answer this stuff when people ask. If people think new guys ask too often, they don't have to respond. :)
 
I have a .177 pellet gun that will penetrate 5 layers of drywall and still hurt someone if they are on the other side.

The real truth is, if you shoot at someone in a house, there is no self defense round in a firearm that you can trust to be stopped by drywall. If your child is on the exact opposite side of a wall as a robber, dont shoot. Never assume that just because a bullet is a hollow point that it cant strike and KILL someone on the other side of a wall - because it certainly can. No effective self defense round is exempt from this. Not even .22's.
 
If your desire is to minimize wall penetration then buy a shotgun and load it with bird shot.

Now what did I just say? ;) Birdshot might minimize the problem, but it'll still go through at least one wall just fine (and maybe more):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HlNiUpTkLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqbdVFxlkk

Forgive me if I don't address everyone specifically. I am reading all of the posts and find them very insightful. I purchased a box of Hornady XTP 180 gr. JHP when I paid for the gun simply because I figured having some HD ammo was better than none.

There are better these days, but it'll do.

I was impressed with the reviews I found of the Ranger T-Series.

These are not quite as consistent in terms of expansion as HSTs and Gold Dots, but they're still good in that regard and the razor-sharp "talons" that they sprout are nasty! :evil:

In my 12 ga. I have reduced recoil 00 buck and, as a last resort, slugs. My set up for that is 4 shells of 00 buck and 2 slugs. I figure if the 4 00 bucks don't take him down, then I need something heavier. I went with the low recoil for 2 reasons. Primary reason being to make it easier for the wife to handle if she were to ever need to shoot the 12 ga. Second is, and I could be wrong in this assumption, that the pellets would penetrate less through walls if they miss bad guy.

#00 buck will penetrate every interior wall of your house, reduced-recoil or otherwise. That's a good load, though, as full 12-gauge power is arguably overkill for human targets anyway (with buckshot). You could also try #4 buck, which is somewhat less penetrative than #00 buck but even more devastating to bad guys (27 pellets penetrating a foot deep will do that).

As for the mixed load, it's really only an advantage if there's a good chance that your target would be wearing body armor, I suppose. It's usually better to know exactly what you're going to shoot with every pull of the trigger, and to make it the most effective load, which slugs, against unarmored targets, are not--buckshot is what really stops assailants cold. Also keep in mind that it is common for there to be more than one assailant in a home invasion.

In the various reviews of JHP rounds I've read, the expansion of the round is always pointed out. How critical is it to have "the" round that expands the most? I guess what I'm really asking is, do I lose much effectiveness in a JHP round if it isn't the one that expands the most?

Many people do seem somewhat obsessed with expansion because there have been so many developments in that area, and new technology is always a big draw. What I'd suggest, as mentioned earlier, is to decide how much penetration you want, and then choose a round that gets at least that much penetration and the most expansion among those. For the most part, just about any .40 S&W JHP will do for most people (except maybe for that weak 135 grain Homeland Security load that Winchester designed to their specifications, although it certainly can still kill).

It gets much scorn, but another gun I think might just be the answer to dry wall concerns is the Judge loaded with number 4 lead shot loads. Shoot for the face. It'll be close range. Maybe back 3 rounds up with 000 buck loads.

Go ahead and bash me for my opinion, but it makes sense to me. I don't own a Judge, don't live in apartments.

Well, if there are any special purposes for this gun, then this might be one of them. I wouldn't recommend this tactic, but it's a personal decision. You could also load a regular pistol with pistol-caliber shotshells from CCI for face shots, backed up by JHP rounds.

Also, can someone explain the relevance of the inches of penetration as it pertains to actual penetration into a bad guy? I read the 12" standard for the FBI above and was curious about it seeing as how most people aren't 12" thick... Forgive my ignorance in this respect but I haven't quite understood the direct correlation. Thank you again.

The FBI actually recommends 12"-18" as a useful range (with 18" being preferable to less, and more being overkill), based on studying their collective experiences in shootings (and probably other data as well). This recommendation tries to take into account shots from angles at which the human body presents a much thicker target than usual, as well as the fact that bullets may have to penetrate limbs and even bones to reach vital tissues. The latter is a reason that I personally prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets with high sectional density and momentum, as they tend to be better at penetrating bone (or other hard barriers) as well as staying on target in doing so. In my opinion and that of the FBI, as it happens, 12" is really a bare minimum, but even so, a lot of people don't even attempt to better it.

The reason you want a projectile to penetrate at least 12", is that most people aren't 12" thick. You WANT that bullet to do damage from one side of him to the other, with as big of a wound channel as possible. A good shot that would hit the spine won't do much good if it doesn't have enough energy to reach it. The further it penetrates, the higher the likelihood it will hit something that will make the bad guy stop what he is doing. I don't want it stopping halfway. I want a premium hollowpoint to mushroom to at least 1.5 times the diameter of the projectile and go all the way through. I want as many pellets of buckshot to tear all the way through him creating multiple wound paths. The more wound paths, the greater the chance of incapacitation. Not complicated.

The load that I currently use approaches 15" of penetration in bare ballistic gelatin and far exceeds that--sometimes over 19"--when passing through clothing first, giving up some expansion in the process (maybe the FBI and I do think alike after all in selecting the very same load, which was in fact developed specifically for them). It's up to me to ensure that my chosen defensive load will be effective when I need it, and I don't want to end up dead just because the target was too obese or the angle was oblique and an otherwise well-placed bullet simply failed to penetrate deeply enough. :banghead: Here's the bottom line that is potentially true for each and every shot that I may have to take in self-defense: if it's human, then I can kill it. :D
 
BillyBobJoe83: said:
.....From there, arrange my furniture such that should I miss, the round will be stopped within a wall or two. Does this sound correct?

Sure, but it draws stares :scrutiny: and comments :uhoh: from visitors when they notice that you've nailed the sofa, lamps and coffee table up on your living room walls.


:D
 
I can understand the problems of a round going threw a wall, and/or getting out side the home. What I have done, I reload, made wood bullets from a wooden dowel. I don't know if they will penetrate a sheet rock wall or not, but they will not go threw an old couch when fired from my .357 at 10 feet. I am investigating the loading of wooden bullets in .45 Auto. For those who reload, find a dowel that is close to the correct size, then sand it down and cut pieces off about twice as long as a lead bullet. Start with a minimal load and plan on going down. I doubt these will work in an auto without changing the recoil spring.
I have always made my home defense loads so who ever got shot with one was going to have to go the doctor to get the slug removed.
I do agree with bird shot, but that goes into my .44 Mag. for home defense, those will penetrate a half inch plywood at 25 feet, with a half ounce of shot and 9 gr. of Unique.
Out of a low base 12 gauge, you will shoot threw a couple walls with 7 1/2 through 9 shot. Even a short barreled shot gun is difficult to maneuver in a home. Try swinging your shot gun in different parts of your house before you get caught in the middle of the night with an armed perp somewhere in your home.

Ray
 
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