What is the magic bullet? Heavy vs. Light.

[cowssurf]

I've never shot anybody. I'm a relatively new gun owner. I've got a Remington 870 w/18 inch barrel, a Ruger SP101 w/3 inch barrel in .357, and a Stoeger Cougar in 9mm. I have researched articles, forums, charts, etc. in search for the perfect round in these guns. My 870 has 00 buck loaded in it (although some say it's going to penetrate walls and kill loved ones and neighbors). I have my .357 loaded with .38 +P because it's mainly for my wife. I just recently bought the Cougar (I'm very happy with it and with the unbelievable price). My question is this: what is better, heavy or light bullets? Fast or hard hitting? And what's with this wild fear everone has of over-penetrating? It seems like everyone wants a bullet to go straight to the heart, stop, then explode, shattering the bad guy into a million pieces but with no dangerous bad-guy shrapnel hitting any innocents. With all the talk of over-penetration, I get the impression no one has ever fired a bullet and missed the intended target, and our only fear is that our perfectly aimed bullet might pass through the bad guy and hit our daughter who was crawling around behind him. Then on the other side of the coin, everyone ridicules the .38 and the .380 for not penetrating enough. How far must it penetrate? And what if the bad guy is standing in front of a mountain and I don't care if the bullet goes through him? Why is it so bad for a bullet to go through somebody. What's all this talk of "dumping" energy? Wouldn't the same energy dumped into the bad guy be dumped back into me through the gun? If I can handle the energy, can't the bad guy? Isn't my goal to make bleeding holes in him in the most inconvenient places? What bullet should I buy? How much should it penetrate? Help me? Maybe I should shoot him with the .357 and then hit him with a baseball bat, dumping massive energy he'll never forget right into his chest.

And if you quote Massad Ayoob, can you also list all the bad guys he's shot and what round he shot them with. Also whether the bad guy was stopped dead in his tracks, was knocked back more than 6 inches, or whether his momentum carried him forward more than 6 inches.

 

[Car Knocker]

There is no magic bullet.

 

[Jackal]

What is the magic bullet?

The one that stops the target.

 

[bdjansen]

Paragraphs are your friend.

Don't over think it. Go to brassfetcher.com and pick one.

What's with the Massad Ayoob comment?

 

[MCgunner]

147 stuff has the worst record of the 9mm stuff on the street as I recall. Over penetration is a problem. I go with 115 grain +P pushing a hornady XTP out of a 3" Kel Tec at 1262 fps/410 ft lbs. I like that load MORE because it's 100 percent reliable, 3.5" at 25 yards accurate, and shoots to POA in the gun, though. If the gun worked better with 147, I'd probably be carrying 147. It matters more that you can put the bullet where it counts and that the gun works 100 percent with it, IMHO.

 

[Zoogster]

I've never shot anybody. I'm a relatively new gun owner.

Those two statements together make it sound like you are just waiting for that to change. That things will not be complete until you have.

That may not be the intention, but you really do not want to have to shoot someone. There is moral issues, which you may or may not be able to justify to yourself or your family.
You may or may not prevail even if justified in the use of force in a criminal case.
You are even less likely to prevail if justified in a civil case.
Even if you do win them, court costs are expensive, a couple trials lasting a couple years with cost you tens of thousands of dollars, and can be so stressful that you may find your life or your family relationship struggling. How about having your wife leave you because she just cant take the stress of it anymore after it is being dealt with for months or years, tieing up a lot of your time.

Then there is the family. The family or at least some of the family of even the worst of bad guys will often have a personal vendetta against you from that point on. That could lead to them trying to murder you, perhaps up close, perhaps from behind or afar. It can lead to reprisals on your family.
If they were a gang member you have the gang as well.
All of which will have the advantage if they choose to offensively attack you or a family member for the purpose of revenge.
It can lead to them being out to get you financialy, or legaly. Damage your property, or file false reports on you, perhaps even impacting your rights.

You don't want to use lethal force unless you have to.

My question is this: what is better, heavy or light bullets?

All of that said, fast is generaly more explosive. It really depends on a particular round. If it penetrates more than necessary or is a caliber more powerful than required, faster and lighter can help to maximize the damage, sacrificing penetration for expansion.
If you are using a limited power caliber, that is generaly not viewed as an providing adequate penetration then as heavy as available and even FMJ rounds can be ideal.
It really depends on the power of the cartridge how radical you want the expansion and how fast and light you want the cartridge.

Heavier tends to be more predictable in its effects. It zips along in a relatively straight line, crushes or breaks bone, and is less deflected by angles or hard surfaces, like skulls, bones etc. It is more likely to penetrate deep enough, or too far. That means where you aim will usualy be damaged, reliably, but the damage may not be maximized.

Lighter and faster tends to do more soft tissue damage immediately, less predictably, and in more erratic patterns. It may glance of bone, bounce around, be deflected and end up doing less damage and penetrate less or not enough dependening on the physique of the individual and whether it strikes bone, and at what angle. It can do a lot more soft tissue damage, or not enough damage altogether.

So generaly the lighter faster loads are chosen, and since foot pound energy is based on the formula it is, a small amount of speed increases the amount of energy more than a similar percentage increase in weight. So light and fast is more impressive numerically even if not always in practice.

 

[KenW.]

I don't carry a 9mm professionally, I carry one of several .45s though.

All the misses in the world with the "magic" 9mm or .45 bullet won't stop anything; you're better off with a hit between the eyes with a .22 rimfire.

Placement, placement, placement.

 

[Gun Slinger]

The issues that plagued the 9mm 147 gr. subsonics in the early 1990's are a thing of the past, especially with the current crop of premium grade ammunition being manufactured and available today. If you like them, use them with confidence as they will do their thing if you do yours. Any of the listed selections above should carry you through whatever you might possibly encounter quite well and any closer scrutiny of these rounds is really just an exercise in 'advanced hair-splitting'.

These threads never solve or prove anything anyway since they usually degenerate into "pissing contests" and emotionally charged debates very quickly since the topic seems to engender such strong views and opinions.

I admit, that such a poll is interesting in that it will show the proportion of those who use/favor "heavy and slow" vs. "light and fast" responding to this poll.

I notice that you do not list the standard velocity/pressure 115 grain loadings in your poll for those preferring it. Is there a reason for that?

For the record, I choose the Hornady 147 grain TAP "CQ" XTP JHP , simply because it is what I have always carried "in the line of duty" and will always carry as I have come to trust it and feel most comfortable with it.

Have fun,
GS

 

[cowssurf]

Okay. I can tell there are some people who think all my words in my original post were serious. I hope you all know, I don't want to shoot anybody unless it became absolutely necessary and was justifiable. My Massad Ayoob comments were totally facetious. However, I do really want any good advice/interesting opinions on a good round for 9mm.

 

[Brian Williams]

Massad is a member here and might jump in this thread. I like 147 or 125. I use 147s in my glock 19 and 125s in my S&W (9)642

 

[wally]

I carry bigger than 9mm if at all possible, and go with 147gr in 9mm if I must, assuming the gun is reliable with them, not all are.

Bullet placement on the target counts far more than which bullet it is.

--wally.