El Taco's Guide to Restoring Gun Rights in Europe

[Cosmoline]

The UK is actually far, far worse than Scandinavia and Central and East Europe when it comes to firearm ownership. There's a very long tradition of gun clubs in Central Europe, and I don't think any EU parliament will have the power to shut them down in the near future. Some of them go back to the first matchlock competitions. They even have their own little uniforms
The biggest limitations are not on what you can own, unlike the US. Once you have the state's approval and membership in a gun club, my information is that you can own a wide array of firearms including full autos. BUT, you're not allowed to strap them on and walk around town with them. There are strict laws regarding storage of the firearms, and IIRC some nations require they be kept at the gun club. Most of Europe has so far resisted the wave of anti-gun laws that swept over the UK and commonwealth nations in the 1990's. There are certainly groups trying to ban all the firearms, but so far they've met with resistance.

I agree that simply adopting US-style gun rights tactics would backfire in Europe. Gun owners there have a very different heritage and gun culture and their organizations have to reflect that fact.

 

[Kurush]

I agree that simply adopting US-style gun rights tactics would backfire in Europe. Gun owners there have a very different heritage and gun culture and their organizations have to reflect that fact.

I still disagree. Look at PETA, Greenpeace and their ilk. Virtually everyone sees them as a bunch of loony college-age girls with eating disorders, yet they keep getting laws passed. They make progress because they're aggressive, persistent and uncompromising and it's human nature to try to make a deal with someone like that to get them off your back. I won't tell continental European countries what to do because I know less about their laws, but as for the UK you guys are getting beaten like a red headed stepchild and any strategy you adopt can't do worse than what you're doing now.

Again, I realize it's easier said than done and I preemptively admit to being an arrogant American cultural imperialist

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't want European gun culture to change that much, though. If they became like us, they'd stop sending us all their neat old rifles!

 

[igor]

Finland

1. You need an organization with at least one full-time professional staff member. If there aren't enough people to support the cause to get one full-time staffer, then there really isn't enough support for gun rights for any progress to be made.
2. The organization's presentation and message should be all positive. Lots about sports, responsibility, safety, tradition, freedom and trust. Little or nothing about crime, genocide. You don't see Coppertone running ads about skin cancer, do you? No scary messages. Here in the US, the NRA uses positive messages and HCI uses negative messages and the NRA has 4mil members and the HCI has 100k members (on a good day).
3. No connection to or sympathy for far-right parties. No code words, etc. Make the group as multi-cultural as possible.
4. Build connections to the full range of mainstream parties, and make it clear that gun rights are a thoroughly non-partisan issue.
5. Build connections to American groups. Hold conferences.
6. A lot of people in Europe have never experienced the fun of shooting a gun, spending a summer day at an outdoor range, etc. You need to have people with those positive associations. The way to do that is to have the organization sponsor shooting events for non-shooters where non-shooters learn and experience in a fun, positive, friendly environment. Get people at the local church... and the local mosque and synagogue and university and any other creative ideas.
7. Concetrate on small, local, incremental victories.
8. Build connections and support among law enforcement organizations.
9. Build connections with local shooting businesses. They could be donors, too. What would happen to their business if gun laws were loosened?
10. Invite hostile people to your meetings! "Hey, you Green party guys think all guns should be recycled? Why don't you come to our next meeting! Come to our shooting range day this month and first-hand how demonic these things are!" A little bit of humor and lightness can make this possible.

1. We don't really have a gun rights organization. The closest would be the military reserves' sports organization, but that's on a voluntary basis.
2. Check. The above does hint towards a national preparedness but here that is a positive message.
3. Check.
4. Check.
5. I have to agree with my fellow European board members from earlier in this thread. The message to the general public would go astray. I would welcome such discussion.
6. The number of such people here isn't that big compared: we still conscript more that 80% of all males at age 19... but yes, this is in the works. Women are the main target group with the mil. res. sports org. and personally I see to that I invite people to the range given a proper opportunity.
7. Check.
8. Check. To expand a bit from LE, the best facilities are the Defence Forces' ranges and they are under fire (pun intended) from the Greens. Combined forces are a Good Thing here as we provide the sports part (us Finns just love competitive sports) to the serious part the FDF takes care of.
9. Check.
10. Not the easiest thing... on a personal level I see to that everyone I call a friend, and their spouses too, gets a good idea of what I spend time with. They always get curious. On an organizational level, they do lobby hard and concentrate more on the public servants who hold key positions of power concerning firearms legislation and practice. We have this czar's officials' culture still alive and kicking here... as to politicians, there is a strong but silent pro-gun representation in our parliament. Since the latest revision of our Firearms Code a few years back there seems to be precious little issue to take to. But those guys are there, and they are quite approachable. The good thing about living in a small country is that I can literally pick up my phone and call my MP, personally. The MEPs seem to get a little tougher on that...

Back to point 1., the main problem still seems to be the well succeeded divide et impera that keeps different gun enthusiasts indifferent to each others' concerns. Attempts at a general gun lobbying organization have been made and inevitably they've failed at this. I guess we still have things way too well. Until much worse times, I guess we'll be working through the sports organizations. It seems sufficient for now.

 

[Fletchette]

Some things work in the US that would never work in other countries. For example, it is absolutely counterproductive to invoke the self-defense issue in the gun law debate in Germany as long as the general population is strictly opposed to the idea.

Having married a German I am familiar with this phenomenon, but it is still unbelievable. It seems to me that there are many Germans (and Europeans) that would rather die if they were assaulted in order to show the State how "good" they were as opposed to "taking the Law into their own hands" and defending themselves.

What we have here is a basic disagreement as to what constitutes "civilization".

One side states that "civilization" is when people live together peacefully, without weapons and rely on the government for their most basic necessities. "Bad" people will cease to exist once we coddle them enough.

The other side believes that a "civilized" society does not punish a woman for shooting a man who had attempted to rape her.

This is quite a large philosophical distance to bridge. One has to ask if it is even reconcilable.

 

[trooper]

It seems to me that there are many Germans (and Europeans) that would rather die if they were assaulted in order to show the State how "good" they were as opposed to "taking the Law into their own hands" and defending themselves.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Nobody over here disputes the basic assumption that a human being has the right to defend himself against an unlawful attack. German self-defense law is actually pretty good, and clearly favours the defender over the attacker. For example, we don't have a duty to retreat, no matter where the attack takes place.

All people I know agree with me that they would rather shoot an attacker than being killed or injured themselves.

The difference is the conclusion that people draw from said basic assumption. In Germany most people cling to the idea that guns are not always a viable tool for defense, and that the social cost of widespread private gun ownership is higher than the benefit it might offer. Of course they seem to forget that there are already 10 million guns in the hands of law-abiding gun owners without causing any bloodshed... :banghead:

In most places over here the violent crime rate is decidedly lower than in the US. While there are estimated 20 million illegal guns around in Germany, most perps don't carry. That leads people to the idea that guns are not really needed. Incidentally, those are the same people who would buy insurances for anything and everything


Trooper

 

[Old Guy]

CCW In the UK?

A man can never have too many books, too many wines or too much ammunition.
-Col. Jeff Cooper (Good quote)

My Son and I met Jeff Cooper when he lived on Gunsite 1990? Not sure it was a late December, I had met Mr. Cooper on several occasions prior to this, my Son had not.
When we had the tour (range closed for Christmas) and spent an hour in the gun room/vault below the house, we left, as my Son is as tall as Jeff, he put his arm around Michaels shoulder, and said "Your Dad is a really fine fellow, despite his penchant for that pip squeak caliber!" me and my Glock 9mms.

Trooper, it might be the right time for the ball less Brits to go to the EU courts and demand hand guns, and CCWs for same, due to the recent terrorist attacks against ordinary citizens, not the Military, or Police, and the fact of street crime rocketing through the roof! And no means of self defense against illegally armed criminals, except armed victims!

 

[Fletchette]

Trooper, do not take the following personally as you seem to be quite logical and polite, but I had to write this...

I had dinner with several of my then-fiancees colleagues in Germany, and the subject of guns came up. (Note: I didn't bring it up, they asked about Columbine as I worked near there- Lockheed Martin). I defended the Second Amendment on individual rights grounds, and they responded as if that were "selfish" as so many people died for individual rights. They repeatedly brought up Columbine. I responded with the Gutenberg school shooting, where there were more deaths than Columbine, and had been more recent, and they all stared off into space as if they had completely forgotten about it. "Americans" are violent, don't ya know.

Incidents like this happen on a regular basis. It seems to me that logic simply does not apply. People believe what they want. Americans will be viewed as under-educated, gun-toting idiots in Europe no matter how many times we bail their derriers out of European conflicts. We can land on the moon and they only pause momentarily before comparing our President with a chimp.

I travel to Europe a lot due to my wife, but I have noticed that we both are taking less and less crepe. I know that there several Europeans here on The High Road and I do not wish to offend them personally, but expect the U.S. is going to be more and more blunt with Europe. I am looking forward to John Bolton in the U.N. for that very reason.

 

[trooper]

I had dinner with several of my then-fiancees colleagues in Germany, and the subject of guns came up. (Note: I didn't bring it up, they asked about Columbine as I worked near there- Lockheed Martin). I defended the Second Amendment on individual rights grounds, and they responded as if that were "selfish" as so many people died for individual rights. They repeatedly brought up Columbine. I responded with the Gutenberg school shooting, where there were more deaths than Columbine, and had been more recent, and they all stared off into space as if they had completely forgotten about it. "Americans" are violent, don't ya know.

Oh yeah, we did have our own share of school shootings and related incidents. Those events are all but forgotten; actually they are used against us gun owners every single time changes in legislation are considered. Our new, stricter Weapons Act is completely the result of the Erfurt tragedy.

I guess some people just see what they want to see. The first school massacre in Germany back in the '60s was committed with a spear and a home-made flamethrower - and stopped by a neighbour with a carefully aimed headshot from his .22 rifle.

I have to admit that I'm one of the more pro-american folks on our side of the pond, though. As I said before, most Europeans only know the things about the US that the liberal media feeds them. That's the reason why publicly closing ranks with the NRA could do more harm than good for us, no matter how much we share and support their goals.


Regards,

Trooper

 

[Iain]

Flechette -

From my standpoint, if you can contend (and somewhat accurately) that most Europeans have skewed impressions of Americans due to a variety of reasons of which the media is one; I would then also contend that the same is quite likely to be true of American impressions of Europeans.

I would add that I don't recognise the majority of my countrymen in descriptions such as 'ball less' as used above. I'd expect you guys probably not recognise some of the descriptions used about Americans on more European forums.

 

[Mk VII]

yes, it's interesting how many people round here seem to think that hurling insults at us is the best way to have a dialogue.

 

[Fletchette]

Iain, MkVII, et al,

I have tried NOT to hurl insults in my posts for that very reason (please re-read my posts; you will find no insults). The basis of my original question was, why do so many Europeans view Americans (and gun-ownership by Americans) as "uncivilized"?

 

[Iain]

I wasn't accusing you of anything Flechette, merely pointing out that what you said about European perceptions is, in my view, a two way street.

As to your question. The date to the left of this post is when I started thinking about all that. If I ever get to answer I'll let you know.