electrolysis

[shattered00]

I want to try this method before any of the Ballistol or Blue Wonder etc. This method seems much safer on the blueing since no steel wool is needed. First, here is the info I have so far.

Courtesy of Tinkerer:
"You can remove rust from metal using electrolysis, and it will not harm the bluing. The main advantage to this method is it gets all the rust in hard to reach places. You will need:

· A plastic container that will hold the part and electrolysis solution.
· Steel rod. DO NOT USE STAINLESS STEEL AS THIS WILL PRODUCE HARMFUL BYPRODUCTS.
· Water
· Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (not baking soda. Washing soda can be found in your local grocery store with the laundry detergents. If you cannot find washing soda, pour some baking soda {sodium bicarbonate} into a pan and heat it over low-medium heat. Water and carbon-dioxide will cook-off leaving washing soda {sodium carbonate}.)
· Battery charger or other high amperage power supply.

Cautions:
· Please wear eye protection and rubber gloves when working with this solution as it is very alkaline and can cause irritation.
· Do NOT use stainless steel for the electrode as this will produce harmful byproducts.
· The electrolysis process breaks down water into its component parts, Hydrogen and Oxygen, which can be explosive. Work outside or in a very well ventilated area.
· Be sure your battery charger/power supply is unplugged before attaching or touching the leads.

In the container, mix 1 tablespoon of washing soda for each gallon of water to make up your solution. Be sure the washing soda is thoroughly dissolved. Place a steel rod (do NOT use stainless steel) either through the part to be cleaned (use o-rings to prevent the part from touching the rod), or place numerous rods around the inside of your container. Connect these rods with wire; these will be the anode. You must be sure that the part to be cleaned is not touching the rod(s). Suspend the part in the solution with steel cable or wire so that it makes a good electrical contact with the part; this will become the cathode. Connect the negative lead (black) to the part being cleaned (either to the part itself, or to the suspending cable or wire), and connect the positive (red) lead to the rod(s), then plug in the charger. You will immediately begin to see bubbles; this is Hydrogen and Oxygen as the water breaks down. Allow the part to "cook" for 3-4 hours. The time is dependent on the size of the part, amount of rust, and the current of the power supply. After you remove the part, immediately clean and dry it off, then coat it with a good quality gun oil or rust preventative oil."

Also more info from here: http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1695

I had posted this in the rifle section, but that was another folly of mine. I figured it would get more hits here.

I just have a few questions. I rarely do things like this myself, so this is a big task for me. Talk to me as if you were explaining this stuff to a person who has an IQ of 70.

1)The article says a carbon or graphite rod would work best. Where in the world would I find either of these?

2)Is Rebar considered a steel rod?

3)How many rods should I use since I have quite a bit of barrel to have rust removed from?

4)Would copper wire work okay or would it create hazardous byproducts?

5)When I tie the wire around the rod, should I wrap it around just a few times or as much as the wire length allows?

6)Do I need multiple wires wrapped around the barrel since the barrel is around 30 inches long?

7)When it says to "suspend the part to be cleaned," what could I tie the barrel to? It says that the area above and around it must be open or an explosion could occur, so I don't see how I am going to suspend this barrel in the water...

If you do respond, you can just say #1 and your answer so that you don't have to copy and paste the entire question.

Apologies for the multitude of questions.

 

[00-Guy]

Before my reply - I am not a material engineer nor a physical scientist. So take these into account. I am a computer geek who has read a lot.

Electrolysis is a common method of rust removal in the handtool restoration and collecting world. It is often the last resort also since the opportunity to mess up is so great. Check out the Woodnet forums and Woodnetcentral for more info. Search for electrolysis or rust removal. There have been instances of saws that have been reduced in size by this method. I am concerned that in a tolerance specific hobby/profession that too much might be removed to the point of unsafe operation of the gun. Most of the sites that provide info on Electrolysis will provide the chemical reaction and their by products.

Rebar is an iffy product as to its composition. It is steel. Sometimes it might be high carbon steel other times low carbon. There might be intersting impurities in the rebar. Check out anvilfires junkyard scrap faq for more info. It should work. However since you will be uncertain as to the exact makeup of the steel, your mileage might vary. Mcmaster-Carr should have the graphic or carbon rod.

I personally would not try this. I would try the oil and steel wool method of rust removal. A saw or plane blade I would consider trying this approach. But a barrel, nope. But it is yours to do and info is free. If you are set on doing it, try it on a spare/throwaway barrel. Measure carefully and inspect, inspect, inspect.

Good luck.

 

[GeorgeR]

I've had good resuts using a steel plate from Home Depot as the anode. I wrote a short article in the March American Gunsmith that describes how I do it (which I'm sure is not the only way, and probably not the best way).If you want a copy email me your postal address and I'll send it to you.
Evapo-Rust (www.evapo-rust.com) is what I usually use, you can leave guns in it overnight, it dissolves only rust, and leaves the gun clean. Nice stuff.

 

[GeorgeR]

Evapo Rust

I just reread the thread. Evapo Rust WILL remove blueing, so ignore that idea for your situation.

 

[Sport45]

Since bluing is rust, I wouldn't trust electrolysis not to take it off. If you don't want to use 0000 steel wool, you could always try Bronze Wool and CLP to take the rust off.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I sell antique tools on the side and have used electrolysis extensively to remove rust from them. Electrolysis will remove the bluing. In fact I've used it to remove the bluing on a gun I was prepping for a reblue.

But, just in case you want to try it for something else:

1)Carbon or graphite would not work any better than iron or steel (if at all).

2)Rebar is a steel rod. Rebar makes a great anode. When I'm electrolyzing large parts, I use a bunch of pieces of rebar in a plastic trash barrel. I made a plywood circle to fit the bottom of the barrel and drilled a series of 5/8" holes around the perimeter of the circle, about 1/2" in from the edge. I put the bottoms of the pieces of rebar into these holes to align them in sort of a cage-type arrangement in the barrel. The rebar is long enough so that the tops are out of the water/washing soda solution. I tie the tops together with copper wire.

3)Electrolysis is an electro-chemical process and works best when the anode is in close physical proximity to the cathode. To de-rust (and de-blue) the outside of a gun barrel, the ideal anode would be a larger tube around the outside of the barrel. When I do it, I move the part around in the bath until the ammeter on my supply (a 12-volt battery charger) reads between 5 and 10 amps. When the process is running you'll see bubbles form on the part. If there's an area on the part that has few or no bubbles, move that area closer to an anode (or add another anode near that area). Give it a while though - some areas start spewing bubbles immediately while others take a little while.

4)Copper won't work.

5) Just enough to make good electrical contact. A few wraps on a clean anode will usually do it.

6) No. You only need one wire to connect the cathode (barrel) to the supply. It wouldn't matter if the barrel was 30 feet long - it still conducts electricity.

7) 20lb test fishing line through the barrel tied to some sticks that span the top of the tub would work just fine to suspend the barrel.


Let me reiterate though - THIS WILL REMOVE ALL OF THE BLUING.

 

[spencerhut]

I tried the evapo-rust on an old Mauser bolt that was nickle plated last night. It took off the rust, some of the nickle and discolored the rest of the nickle. I'm thinking I might stick it back into the solution and then re-blue it instead of putting nickle back on it. Hell I might just leave it as is. I'll call it Patina . . .

Spencer