Elk gun

[Meeteetse]

This entire conversation has been interesting, but as I said before, after 40+ years of hunting in big country there is no substitute for good shooting. Range finders and lasers are fine, but they don't pull the trigger.

I doubt if most of us are truly qualified or skilled enough to be taking shots beyond 250-400 yards regardless of the capabilities of our equipment. I've seen the results of poor shooting all to often to know that caliber is not "the" most important consideration. I would rather hunt with someone who knows their limitations regardless of caliber.

 

[woof]

Meeteese, Oh c'mon. I'll bet most of these guys, if you just gave them a bench and some sandbags and maybe a broadside elk that just stands there, could make pretty fair shot placement. f you talk to anyone who checks deer at a check station they will tell you they come in with holes all over them. The sad fact is, the majority of hunters these days just blaze away and don't give a crap.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

H&H,

You took that wrong...I was referring to bullets of the same weight...and the 7mm's will have higher BC's.

I am not a 7mm fan...of all the rifles I own (and there's plenty of them)...none of them are 7mm.

I have owned a few 7mm's in the past (7x61, 7mm RM, 280 to name a few), but I have always found my way back the 308 Winchester...always.

 

[berettashotgun]

Interesting fact I learned this spring;
While at a benchrest shoot, balloons @ 100 - 250 - 400 - 500 yards : 4 -4" balloons at each range.
BENCHREST guns (did I emphasize benchrest enough?)
I think there were 40 "riflemen" pluggung away, 18 rounds on 16 targets.
Bench gun( and some NICE ones ) and wonderful rests.
ZERO perfect scores -zilch - nada.
I guessed about a 15mph gusting wind.
Now we are conversing about hitting an 8" target @ 400 yards?:banghead:
I personally shoot a 7mm remmy mag.- at deer.
I don't (haven't yet) get the lottery draw for an Elk here in God's country/ Soonerland, whichever.
I used a 270 and 280 and 300 and 243 and 25-06 AT deer, but shoot the rifle better - the one chambered in rem 7mm, the best - so, I use that rifle.
IF I somehow got to go Elk hunting, I think I'd get the most caliber and dia I could ACCURATELY shoot , but 250 in 338 sounds about just right for me.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Well excuse the hell out of me for trying to get beyond purely anecdotal evidence.

Obviously, anyone who has ever hunted their entire lives uses a .35 Whelen or all they've done is spent their lives futilely combing loading manuals. Dang them loading manuals anyways. What do the bullet manufactures know about the bullets they produce? I am sure none of them ever hunt...

Okay, I can't keep it up. It just sounds too ridiculous.

I have seen an entire garage in Deerlodge, MT filled with over 40 elk racks taken by a good friend of the family and his son, and every one of them was taken with a 140 gr PSP CoreLokt from a 7mm Rem Mag.

A dude my dad works with has used 175 gr CoreLokt and Speer GrandSlams to take elk and moose his entire life as well. Obviously, they should stop eating elk steak and reading loading manuals, and get to the obvious fact that they have been mislead by their success and would be better off with a .35 Whelen. Everybody everywhere who hunts anything would be better off with the .35 Whelen. It is the Hammer of Thor, and unstoppable quadruped killing force of doom. Did I miss anything?

Federal loads a 160 gr Accubond at 2900 fps from a 24 inch barrel. That is about 100 fps slower than even a novice handloader can get that projectile out of that barrel length from a 7mm Rem Mag, but so what, right? At 400 yards with a 200 yard zero, you're looking at about 20 inches of drop, 1777 fpe, and 2237 fps.

They only have one load for the .35 Whelen, a 225 gr Trophy Bonded at a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps. At 400 yards with a 200 yard zero, it drops just over 30 inches and retains 1690 fps for 1428 fpe.

Momentum? Let's talk momentum, without forgetting that velocity is still half of it.

At that range, the .35 Whelen produces 1.68 ft/lbs per second of momentum. The 7mm Rem Mag produces 1.58 ft/lbs per second.

Not only that, but the .35 Whelen is well below the velocity threshold for expansion of that projectile, while the 7mm Rem Mag is still several hundred fps above its velocity threshold. Maybe if you had read the manuals more, you'd realize that contrary to your esteemed opinion, the people who actually make these bullets design them to perform within certain velocity limits, which the .35 Whelen has far exceeded at 400 yards. So while the 7mm Rem Mag projectile is still performing as advertised, demonstrating the expansion and weight retention it was designed to produce, the .35 Whelen is not. The 160 gr Accubond only has to expand about 25% of its original diameter to be the same diameter as the .358 caliber projectile, which it will do easily, while still exhibiting excellent penetration. And lets not forget that the 7mm Rem Mag also has more energy at this range, which is only important because it, unlike the .35 Whelen, still possess enough velocity to expand and use this energy to damage vital tissues.

So you're saying it is worth it to give up an advantage in SD as well as downrange velocity, energy, trajectory, and wind drift in order to gain little more than a .1 ft/lbs per second advantage in momentum? And I am the one being the illogical fanatic? Please!

I haven't even began to drink my Kool Aid compared to you guys.

Now, it is possible to get .30 and .338 caliber projectiles to shoot as flat as the 7mm Rem Mag, but doing so usually involves a great deal more recoil, which not everyone wants to deal with, esp when you expend hundreds of rounds a year as I do practicing to actually make those 400 yard shots.

 

[35 Whelen]

More ballistic drivel...S.D....B.C....retained velocity....theory....40 racks....too much recoil....momentum....

YAWN...

I'm gonna turn in. I'm going hunting for a couple of days and with a non-belted cartridge no less. Hope the bullets don't bounce off....

 

[MTMilitiaman]

YAWN...

More ignoring the voice of reason...mines better than yours...nevermind what physics says...hunting...mines better than yours...

Again, too bad you had nothing intelligent to say. What's this, not even going to bring up momentum again? Too bad, an intelligent conversation without relying completely on anecdotal evidence everyone seems to have in abundance but can't substantiate or contribute to a conversation with would have been refreshing.

What state are you in that still has hunting season going in mid-December?

 

[publiuss]

I would use the .338WM for elk (but I already have one) The .30-06 is plenty, I would use a 165gr. Barnes-X. Oh, and the 7mag is not better than the '06 for anything.

 

[H&Hhunter]

MTM,

What state are you in that still has hunting season going in mid-December?

Right underneath my call sign it says Colorado, USA. That could otherwise be known as a clue..

We have a special season late season in the North Western part of the state it is a cow only hunt and it is along the winter migration path of one of the worlds largest natural elk migrations, over 20,000 head of elk. They pass through from Southern Wyoming and extreme Northern Colorado on their way to their wintering grounds in Utah.

It is conducted in units 3-301-11 and several others and it is a draw only hunt which I was lucky enough to draw this year.

MTM you keep referencing other peoples use of the 7MM and their elk killed with it. How many have you killed with your 7MM?

You say nobody can contribute but I wrote earlier that I've killed upwards of 30 head of elk. What part of that is a non contribution to this thread. What part of that is anecdotal? Lack of experience in your book possibly? Before you go questioning my credibility you might want to ask around a bit on this site about who I am and my ability to contribute to hunting conversation.

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Ridgerunner,

I figured that is what the deal was. Sorry if I twisted your words the wrong way.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Right underneath my call sign it says Colorado, USA. That could otherwise be known as a clue..

I wasn't even replying to you. That could otherwise be known as a clue.

The correct answer would be Texas, and it was a rhetorical question.

That is all, class is dismissed.

 

[XD-40 Shooter]

Just shoot a 338 win mag with 250 grain hornady heavy magnums and call it a day, lol. That ought to put any elk flat on his ass, with a good shot.

 

[Shawnee]

I am sick and tired of hearing about and watching guys wound elk at too long a range because they are sold on the 7MM/you name it flat shooting "magnum" myth. Is the 7MM capable of killing elk at 500 yards of course it is but most of the ding bats who try it aren't.

Long distance wounding of elk by slob hunters is NOT limited to the users of "new-fangled magnums". One heck of a lot of wasted elk (and deer) can be laid straight down on the doorsteps of the "30/06-will-kill-it-no-matter-where-you-hit-it" crowd - the same braindead bunch of "ding-bats" who bad-mouth at every other caliber in Christiandom. Slamming the 7mag and its' users because it is a "magnum" is no different than 7mag users taking shots they "don't have in their bag" because their barrel says "magnum.


Before you go questioning my credibility you might want to ask around a bit on this site about who I am and my ability to contribute to hunting conversation

Practice what you preach. I've read your posts and haven't seen any hesitation on your part to question/challenge the credibilty of others. As for your ability to "contribute to hunting conversation" - it seems just fine to me. In fact, I make it a point to read your posts.
As for "who you are" - I don't know and don't particularly care. But telling someone to "ask around a bit on this site about who I am" sure smacks of someone I'd like to buy for what he's worth and sell for what he thinks he's worth.

As for: "How many have you killed with your 7MM?"

It doesn't matter one darn bit how many MTM has killed with his 7mag, or even IF he has killed ANY, or IF he even has a 7mag. And it doesn't matter how many you've killed either. The bare-faced fact is any elk you can drop with the .30-or-larger caliber of your choice - MTM can drop with a 7mag. And if he can't, I can. So think twice before you start that "counting the notches on your gun" garbage again.

 

[Golden Hound]

All I can say after reading this thread is, I'm glad I'm not an elk. With this much planning and analysis dedicated to elk assassination, it must really suck hard to be one of those things.

 

[woof]

Bad hunters and poor shooters can screw up with anything. Good hunters and skilled shooters can make clean kills with anything. Almost everyone is in between and out of respect for the game should use plenty of gun but even moreso - underestimate rather than overestimate their ability and pass on shots that deep down they know are too long.

 

[H&Hhunter]

What state are you in that still has hunting season going in mid-December?

Sorry MTM, I assumed you were replying to me as I am the one who posted that I was out hunting in December. As far as I can see nobody else had made that statement.

My Apologies sir.

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Before you go questioning my credibility you might want to ask around a bit on this site about who I am and my ability to contribute to hunting conversation

Shawnee,

That did not come out as I intended. What I meant was that if you go back and check the record I have been a straight up and honest member of this site since it started and on the old TFL site prior to that. If I've posted nonfactual information it wasn't intentional. Opinions are what they are but I don't weave tall tales. If I say I've done it, I've done it.

And that comment was in reply to this one from MTM,

Particularly the last part. Apparently he wasn't even replying to me so the whole thing is out of context.

Too bad, an intelligent conversation without relying completely on anecdotal evidence everyone seems to have in abundance but can't substantiate or contribute to a conversation with would have been refreshing.

What state are you in that still has hunting season going in mid-December?

My question to MTM is still valid however in his above post he states that we are relying on anecdotal evidence but can't substantiate our argument.

I say bull pucky..I am an experienced elk hunter and hunting guide I've been there, I've shot elk cross canyon and up close and places between those two. It's rare that I don't kill at least one elk and many years I fill both of my tags and sometimes I even get one out of state killing three in a season. I know what works for me I've seen lots of elk killed and some wounded and I've developed some pretty strong notions on what works and what doesn't. So what part of that is "anecdotal"?

The 7MM is fine elk cartridge when used within it's limitations. it simply doesn't have the stuff to qualify it as a long range elk cartridge and my personal experiences have shown that to be true. Neither is a .30-06 my point is being taken out of context NEITHER round is a true long range elk round. So to my way of thinking why go to all the bother of the 7MM when you are simply not gaining that much over a standard non magnum like a .270 or an 06.


My question to MTM still stands how many elk have you killed with your 7MM? And that is not meant as a dig or slight in any way I am simply curious to see what your personal experiences with the 7 mag on elk have been.

 

[gralewaj]

Just going to add my 2 cents here to an old post because I am going elk hunting next week.

Ballistic coefficients, flat trajectories and super sonic speed are great at the range and on paper while large caliber, heavy hitting and "slow moving" bullets are what knock animals DOWN! I have been shooting .35 cal rifles since I was 13. I have been "conditioned" to believe that bigger bullets are better at knocking stuff over, period.

For elk, I shoot .350 Rem Mag from a Rem 673 because the rifle looks cool! And it knocks them down... Period.

.35 Whelen, keep shootin' from the hip!

 

[Ridgerunner665]

For elk, I shoot .350 Rem Mag from a Rem 673 because the rifle looks cool! And it knocks them down... Period.

Yep...that'll knock the socks off of anything within its range, and I do mean ANYTHING.

I have a 673 too, nice rifle (also have a 600 and a 660)

 

[gralewaj]

My Rem 600 is a .243 and it's actually "hers." I'm in the market for 600 rifles in 6mm and .350 RM if I can find them affordable.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

if I can find them

Good luck...

 

[Dr.Rob]

If hunters spent as much time on woodcraft as they did on arguing which bullet/caliber was best there would be far more dead elk every season.

My dad has killed almost all of his elk within 50 yards with a pump action Remington 760 in 30-06. That doesn't mean it's the best rifle, or cartridge, but it does say something about his woodcraft.