Elk Hunting Round Advice

[Loyalist Dave]

I need recommendation on an Elk hunting round, for use in Colorado this fall. I need it effective out to 600 yards. I would like cartridge, load, and brand recommendations please, from the ladies and gentlemen who have hunted and harvested this noble animal. I will choose the launching platform i.e. the rifle, when I have selected the cartridge. Thanks in advance.

LD

 

[grubbylabs]

If you are going to buy a big game rifle and not sure what the shooting conditions will be I would go with a 300 win. It can be loaded to 308 or less and can also carry a rather large round pretty quick.

I have not harvested with a rifle ( I archery hunt) but I would think that a 165 g on up would do just fine. Practicing shooting at that range will be very important as I am sure you are aware. Most in our area prefer a 3-9 scope, but I like a 4-12 because it is very useful while sighting in and 4x seems to be about right for out in the field the few times I have carried a rifle.

I hope that is what you were asking for if not sorry.

 

[wyohome]

Are YOU effective to 600 yards? Most people are not, and once they shoot at that range in windy elk country, decide better of trying that shot. There are still literally tons of dead elk lost each year.

 

[exbiologist]

Why do you need it effective to 600 yards? what kind of terrain are you hunting? Please realize that most elk are shot under 200 yards.
Also, dang near any cartridge will be more effective at long range than the average shooter.

Lastly, what do you have and what are you wanting to buy? Why?

 

[jmr40]

Any of the 7mm or 300 mags will do what you need. The 7mm Rem mag loaded with aerodynamic 160 gr bullets @ 3000 fps will actually shoot flatter and carry more energy at that range than most 300 mags loaded with 180'gr bullets @ 3000 fps. And do it with considerably less recoil.

The heavier 300 will have slightly more energy at closer ranges, but the more aerodynamic 7mm bullets gain the advantage at around 500 yards and beyond. Either has plenty of power to get the job done at 600-700 yards, if the shooter has the skills to make it happen. That is the real question.

Just to throw out the 30-06, 270, or 308. The 30-06 or 270 will do the same job as the magnums, but with about a 500 yard max range. The 308 will do the same job as well, but with about a 400 yard limit. The non-magnums may make more sense unless you have the skill to take advantage of the magnums extra range.

 

[exbiologist]

cracks me up when people suggest a standard is good to 500, but you need a magnum for 600. Ballistically, you may be correct when talking about energy or drop, but to suggest you can't compensate with a little more elevation or that the bullet will just wound if going 200 fps slower is a bit off.

 

[Bwana John]

So.... you dont know enough about cartridges to be able to chose one, but you shoot at game at 600 yds?

 

[jmr40]

Ballistically, you may be correct when talking about energy or drop, but to suggest you can't compensate with a little more elevation or that the bullet will just wound if going 200 fps slower is a bit off.

While not carved in stone, most experts will tell you that around 1500 ft lbs of energy is what you want to cleanly take an elk. You can compensate for bullet drop,(at known ranges). But that seldom happens in hunting situations. The magnum rounds drop a foot less at 600 yards than the 30-06 does at 500. And will have about 400 ft lbs more energy at 500 yards.

That takes a lot of guess work out of it. I also made it pretty clear in my first post that none of this mattered if he didn't have the shooting skills to take advantage of the extra velocity and that he may well be better off with a non-magnum round.


Yea, I know it can be done with less energy with other rounds and under ideal conditions. The goal is to get enough penetration to poke holes in both lungs. do that with any round and you have a dead elk. Slow heavy bullets get their penetration from momentum, arrows from momentum and sharp cutting edges. With modern high velocity rounds 1500 ft lbs is as good a guide line as any to ensure proper penetration on elk sized animals.

With the magnum rounds I listed you still have 1500 ft. lbs out to 600-700 yards depending on the load. A 30-06 won't quite do it at 500, but close enough. Same as the 308 at 400 yards.

I gave the OP good advice. Do with it what you want.

 

[wyohome]

cracks me up when people suggest a standard is good to 500, but you need a magnum for 600.

So.... you dont know enough about cartridges to be able to chose one, but you shoot at game at 600 yds?

These pretty much sum up my feelings about this subject.

 

[wyohome]

I also wonder who the experts are, whether they have experience at energy levels below 1,500, if they have any understanding about animal behavior other than a guided hunt with their favorite rifle (that does meet their criteria), and an overwhelming urge to write something.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So.... you dont know enough about cartridges to be able to chose one, but you shoot at game at 600 yds?

What I "know from what I have been taught" may not be correct for an elk.

Here is what I know from actual experience..., I can reach out and place a shot at 1000 yards with a .308. I know that the same is true for me with the .300 Winchester Magnum, and with a 6.5 x 55 Swede, all with factory ammunition. I know I can reach out and place a shot with a .223 in factory ammunition at 600 yards. So in answer to comments about the opening of this thread, yes I can place a shot to harvest game at 600 yards, placing is one thing, what the bullet does when placed is another.

I have never done so at 600 yards, otherwise I would not need recommendations. I would simply go with what personal experience and observation had demonstrated. I never stipulated that I "shoot" game out to 600 yards, nor that I plan to do so.

I prefer when harvesting deer to get within 300 yards with a .308, and would perfer the same if I was using a .300 Win Mag or a 6.5 x 55. I would not, myself, use a .223 for deer, as a personal preference. With my muzzleloader, I prefer 100 yards or less. I have never hunted Elk. Hence the need for adivice from those who have.

I have been shown on paper that the 7mm Remington Magnum has a rather flat trajectory out to 500 yards, I know the .300 Win Mag has a good trajectory, as well as the .338 Winchester Magnum, and the .30-06 and .270, as well as the .300 WSM, the 8mm-06, the 7.62 x 54R, and several others ..., that will reach that range with little trouble.

(I read a bunch of the previous threads on the THR concerning elk and caliber choices, and some limited the discussion to a few cartriges, and others discussed ranges well below 600 yards. So then I posted this thread.)

I have been asked to teach a fellow how to successfully place a shot at 600 yards, and he plans to hunt for elk. The max range was his choice. I was looking for information from experienced folks as to a specific factory load or several. I could then look into those loadings, and then be able to inform the student (hopefully) that he needs to learn how to accurately shoot at a much closer range, and then teach him how to get the animal within that range.

When first asked by him, I immediately thought Remington 700 with a Leopold 3x9, in .30-06. There are lots of different factory loads for that cartridge, and I would recommend something heavier than a 165 grain spitzer boattail bullet. That round in my experience tends to be comfortable to shoot. IF he absolutely thought he needed something with the word "magnum" in its name I'd say the same rifle but in .300 Win Mag. (And with either, get him to get within 300 yards)

I did not mention more details as I wanted to limit skewing the responses too much.

It appears that my "book experience" was correct, based on the responses on actual experience with cartridge choices and ranges to use those cartridges. Thank you.

LD

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

LD, with those factors in mind, him being new to Elk hunting being the number one concern, I would have to suggest the .30/06. Now another question is this, will you be loading some hand loads for him or will you be suggesting factory ammunition? As I'm sure you are well aware, you could probably tailor a load very nicely to any rifle he chose. But, if you wanted to suggest a great factory loaded product, I would highly suggest this round http://www.hornady.com/store/30-06-Springfield-165-gr-BTSP/ , VERY deadly out to 300 yards (even at 500 it has plenty of energy but it's a pretty steep drop of around 46 inches) but as a couple of others have stated, wind plays an extremely important role in Elk country and above 300 yards will call for a whole lot of field time for learning wind judgement. Notice I said FIELD time not RANGE time. Learning the way the wind works in different terrain settings is a key factor. You can't do that on a flat range. You need to learn it in the same area types you will be going after the Elk. Within 300 yards, wind is not really an overwhelming factor (unless you are hunting in 50 mile an hour gusts) so my suggestion would be to make sure he hunts within that range limitation.

 

[788Ham]

"I have been shown on paper" Thats one hell of a lot different than being in the woods trying a 150 yard shot on a bull elk! Reading paper back books about hunting, and then tramping in the woods is another totally different ball game. Unless you "know how" to shoot accurately out to 400 yards, you'd best leave the shooting to someone who knows how out beyond that distance. As was mentioned earlier, there are tons of animals who get away to die later in the night, not to be found, best leave the long distance shooting to the Marine snipers! If you have to come on THR and ask about which rifle to buy, then want to shoot out to 600 yards, you're whizzin' in the wind my friend, you'll need more practice than what you currently have to even be good out to 300 yards anytime soon. This is from my 50 years of hunting and shooting experience, I won't even begin to shoot past 400 yards, unless its a P-dog on the plains.

 

[T.R.]

I took my first bull elk in 1968 with 30-30 carbine. Distance was approx 80 yards. Since then, I've hammered many more with my .308 carbine. None were farther than 225 yards. In my opinion, your 600 yard reqm't is not realistic.

Another really excellent cartridge that won't knock you around too badly is 35 Whelen. Definately a 300 yard elk cartridge.

Photo from Custer County, South Dakota.

TR

 

[kludge]

400 yards exceeds most hunters' abilties as shooters and exceeds most elk hunting opportunities... so let's use that for a base line.

.338-06
.35 Whelen

Both effective at long range (400 yards) without big magnum recoil. The edge goes to the .338-08 past 300 yards.

The 7mm Rem Mag (or the 7mm WSM/.270 WSM) might be the lightest I would go for elk at 400 yards.

So there you have a handful of cartridges that will do the job for 95% of the hunters and 95% of the elk, without busting your shoulder.

 

[natman]

It doesn't matter how far away you can hit with one shot sometimes.

If you are going to take a shot at a game animal, you should be able to put ALL of your shots on a paper plate at that distance, all of the time, under hunting conditions from hunting positions.

Set up a paper plate on a white background. See how far away you can keep all your shots on it. I'll be it'll be a lot shorter than 600 yards.

Now that that's out of the way, get a 30-06 or bigger.

 

[watergun]

600 Yard Shooting

Have you ever measured 600 yards? Please don't tell me you are going to shoot at a game animal at that distance. Practice your stalking skills and get closer to the game.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I am in total agreement with those who question the 600 yard shots.
600 yards is in reality a looooooong, loooong way off.
Truthfully,you can get by very well with a standard cartridge in the
.270/.30-'06 range but if you insist on a Magnum, the "sight-in" guidelines are the same.
In TRUTH, out of respect for the game animal, shots should be limited, in my opinion, to 300 yards or less saving the stunts for the target range.
I have killed several Deer in the 250 plus yard arena,BUT the shots were ALWAYS the shot of MY choice.

 

[Zeke/PA]

This fall I installed a Burris Eliminator scope for a friend with the Western long shot hebe- jebees.
His rifle is a Tika .300 WSM .
We shot the rifle at various long ranges and my friend was confident in his shooting ability.
He did in fact connect with a Colorado Bull Elk AND a Mule Deer.
Range according to the Eliminator??
Elk : 160 yards
Mulie: 125 yards.
I really take these "long shot" scenarios with a HUGE grain of salt.
Read what the late,great Jack O'Conner has to say about long shots and game animals.
In Jack's writings there are no Super Duper, Humpty Dumpty Magnums involved but rather a treatise on hunting, knowing your rifle and taking REASONABLE shots.

 

[grubbylabs]

"I have been shown on paper" Thats one hell of a lot different than being in the woods trying a 150 yard shot on a bull elk! Reading paper back books about hunting, and then tramping in the woods is another totally different ball game. Unless you "know how" to shoot accurately out to 400 yards, you'd best leave the shooting to someone who knows how out beyond that distance. As was mentioned earlier, there are tons of animals who get away to die later in the night, not to be found, best leave the long distance shooting to the Marine snipers! If you have to come on THR and ask about which rifle to buy, then want to shoot out to 600 yards, you're whizzin' in the wind my friend, you'll need more practice than what you currently have to even be good out to 300 yards anytime soon. This is from my 50 years of hunting and shooting experience, I won't even begin to shoot past 400 yards, unless its a P-dog on the plains.

Did you not read the OP's second post above? It never ceases to amaze, people are in such a hurry to tell someone on the internet they are wrong that they forget to read.

 

[oneounceload]

What I "know from what I have been taught" may not be correct for an elk.

Here is what I know from actual experience..., I can reach out and place a shot at 1000 yards with a .308. I know that the same is true for me with the .300 Winchester Magnum, and with a 6.5 x 55 Swede, all with factory ammunition. I know I can reach out and place a shot with a .223 in factory ammunition at 600 yards. So in answer to comments about the opening of this thread, yes I can place a shot to harvest game at 600 yards, placing is one thing, what the bullet does when placed is another.

At typical East Coast elevations? What about after hiking uphill from 8,000 to 11,000 feet? Will you still be able to do those shots as your lungs scream? I lived in Colorado as well as NV - those elevations for flatlanders really do them in, especially if you are not acclimated

I used a 7mm mag with Sierra or Nosler 160 bullets and they performed as needed, but AI never took a shot over 300 yards - and never needed to. it is called "hunting", not "shooting" - try getting closer so you don't wound an animal

 

[ZeroJunk]

Well, if you have done much of it you will know that you can get a 600 yard shot in the mountains and it be impossible to get any closer in a period of time that the elk will still be there. I have had it happen a few times and simply had to pass having no delusion that I can make that shot, particularly with a 30 MPH cross wind where you can't really even predict which way it is moving across a 1000 foot deep canyon.

So, the learn how to hunt business sometimes just doesn't apply.

But, the man wasn't asking for a sermon on how to hunt or speculation on his shooting skills.

There is no downside to the big 300 mags or 7 MM mags if the recoil doesn't bother the shooter, and I would definitely pick one of those if I was shooting an elk at that distance. And, if the terrain lets you get closer, they won't hurt a thing.

 

[X-Rap]

Very well put ZeroJunk. I might add that a good range finder is indispensable hunting in the mountains for making real distance calls.
If you choose a 300 or 7mag knowing you are tolerant of the recoil you won't have the buyers remorse of wanting the bigger round later. I've never worried about having just that one gun and enjoy any number of those recommended in this thread and have killed a number of elk with them and others at varying ranges.
The terrain is quite varied in elk country and patent statements are worth little more than the air it takes to utter them, you might get a shot at 50yds or you might get one at 400 or more. My recomendation is go with the understanding that you need to know you can make the shot because you have done it not because some chart off the internet says so and hold your shots under that distance.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks again folks, and for the recommendations. Again, I can reach out (personal experience) to 600 yards, and actually to 1000 , but punching paper at those ranges is different than trying to humanely harvest an animal. Again though, I'm not the hunter for the elk, and as I pointed out..., I intend to convince the fellow against his notion of such a shot.

As one reply mentioned "RANGE time"..., well therein lies the rub..., I seriously doubt he will be able to put in the range time needed to make a reliable shot each time at his "requested" maximum range. I want him to become excellent at 300 yards and closer. He's also not a very big dude, so instead of the .300 Win Mag, I will consider the .30-06 first. My personal experience is that round is a tad more comfortable to shoot. I'd hate for him to develop a flinch, from shooting the .300 Win Mag when he's not used to heavy recoil..., I know I still may run that risk with the .30-06, depending on his previous experiences.

Thanks again too for the folks who formed the concensus that reaching out that far is for most folks a very bad idea. I thought as much, but the experience of the folks who have hunted out West are sure a plus.

LD

 

[35 Whelen]

Interesting thread. Some observations:

Energy doesn't kill animals. Destroyed vital organs do. Simply put, an animal with a hole through both lungs will expire. Arm yourself accordingly.

600 yards is indeed a long ways. I have a 600 yd. range here at the house that I see every day as I turn into the gate of my property. It still amazes me just how far away that is. Wind permitting, I can pretty much put my shots in an 18" circle with an open sighted rifle using only a sling for support (it's called slow prone in High Power), but I would NEVER entertain the thought shooting at an animal at that range.

The last bull I killed was at exactly 355 yds and at the time of the shot it seemed lkie an incredibly long ways off. A few minutes earlier, I passed on these bulls:



...because they were 515 yards away. (Quoted distances were all lasered)

Calibers: again anything that will penetrate both lungs. Personally, I think, like another said, that the 338-06 and 35 Whelen are just about as ideal as it gets for elk cartrdges. No, they're not glitzy or glamorous, nor are their names followed by the word "magnum", but with proper bullets they penetrate like crazy and will break shoulders and still get to the lungs.
35W