Elk/Range rifle: 308 or 30-06?

[Arkansas Paul]

For elk, .30-06 hands down. The .308 does almost as well with the lighter bullets, but if you want to go up to 200 grainers, the 06 distances itself quickly. The larger bullets cut down on the .308 cases' already minmal powder capacity.

 

[rbernie]

Just wondering how much an extra pound of weight lessens recoil. I'd certainly like a rifle that's lighter to carry elk hunting but like I said before, i'm only hunting for one week a year. The rest of the time would be target practice so if the difference in recoil is pretty noticeable then I'd likely just suck it up when hunting and get a standard weight rifle and save my shoulder a little wear for the rest of the year.

Stock fit, recoil pad quality, and muzzle blast all contibute heavily to your perception of recoil. I would buy the lightest gun that you can find, so long as its balance point is on the action ring. Light rifles that are rear-balanced (cough, cough, Model Seven, cough, cough) are far harder to shoot, in my experience, than rifles with more weight up front.

 

[bpl]

The fact is owning just one gun sucks.

However, if you're gonna own just one gun, it ought to be a 30-06!

The 30-06 has a definite advantage over the 308 with 180gr bullets and up. Just browsing some reloading manuals, the advantage with the 180gr bullet seems to be 200-350fps, which is fairly substantial IMO.

If you are gonna shoot a lot at the range, an ultralight rifle in either of these calibers is gonna be unpleasant. So, 30-06 has a definite advantage for hunting elk and the 308 has a definite advantage for target shooting, ie. less recoil.

 

[Lucky Strike]

'06 loaded with 180 Nosler Partitions.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

that's what i've been using so far but i couldn't tell you about performance because i've yet to shoot an elk.


As far as recoil goes i'm not concerned with it when i'm elk hunting. It's just when i'm shooting the gun the rest of the time at the range i'm thinking i'll be putting 40 to 50 rounds through it per trip so I'd like to save myself some grief. I think i've already decided to stay away from the 6lb guns. If i get something in the 7.75lb to 8.5lb range I think recoil with either shouldn't be an issue at the range but who knows.

I'm leaning towards .30-06 but the fact that i'll be shooting it a lot more at the range keeps making me look back at the .308

 

[ArmedBear]

Here's something to consider...

http://savagearms.com/116fhsak.htm

It is relatively light, but comes with a muzzle brake that can be turned on or off. .300 WM isn't bad at the range with a brake (the more powerful .300 Wby Mag feels like .308 with a brake on the gun), and you can turn it off in the field so you don't destroy your hunting buddy's hearing.

.308 is a marginal elk round, and it's not a 400 yard elk round. That doesn't mean it's never been done. I know someone who killed an elk with a .22-250. It means that I wouldn't buy a .308 specifically for elk.

Here's something else. If you're not wearing a backpack, you can use one of these things and make a heavier rifle seem a lot lighter: http://www.gunslingsdirect.com/vv-double-sling.html

 

[GooseGestapo]

DEFINITELY GO WITH THE '06.

I've got a lot of rifles, but when it came time to go to Wyoming earlier in late Sept., I took two rifles- my Remington M7 in 7mm08, and my Colt Lt. rifle in .30/06. My favorite of the two is the little Remington, but the '06 is the better elk gun of the two. Just a personal thing.... stock fit, trigger, ect....

The recoil from a light '06 though noticeable from the bench, in the field dosen't amount to much. My Colt weighs 6.5lbs with Burris 2.5-8 scope, sling and 5rds of ammo. Recoil is present, but not really remarkable with my chosen elk load with a 180gr bullet over 55.0gr of IMR4350, for 2,800fps mv (measured at 20' with chronograph). Sighted +3" at 100yds, it shoots sufficiently flat for your intended purpose (very much like the elk hunting I've done....).

I've got other rifles, such as a 10lb MkX Mauser in .338/06, and a Savage M110 in .300RemUltMag w/26"bbl. You carry the rifle MUCH more than you shoot it, and the weight is cumulative over a week or more of walking 10-13mi a day at 7-10,000' elevation up and down hill with gun, pack, ect......

My .300RUM recoils so much that from field positions shooting at game, it's drawn blood on both ends every time I've used it to take game, so it dosen't go afield much....(scope objective is "cushioned", but it tears the skin instead of cutting....) Just to the range so that mine really IS bigger than "yours", if you know what I mean.... It's a great rifle, shoots flat, (no flatter than my .257wbymag though), but it does recoil more than a similar weight .458winmag. I know, I've shot both......

The '06 offers a bit more punch with the 180-200gr bullets, and I've owned and shot more game with it than the .308, so I'm more "confident" with it.

For a good inexpensive yet accurate and lightweight rifle, I'd get the Stevens M200 in '06 and put a set of Leupold/Weaver aluminum bases and rings, and either a Nikon ProStaff 3x-9x or a Leupold VX-I scope and call it good. Also, I suggest the Federal 165 or 180gr Nosler Partition "Premium" ammo.....if you don't reload for hunting, and whatevers cheapest for deer and what-ever.... as long as it's the same weight bullet. (I like the Remington CorLokts..... but the Federals and Winchester promo grade ammo are equally as good.)

 

[X-Rap]

Here is an apples to apples comparison of three cartridges. The OP says 40 to 50 rds per session at the range. I'm not saying good or bad to that, more just an opinion. Unless I was going for the competitive aspect of shooting I would spend my time and ammo in the field under hunting type conditions shooting at field estimated distances. This can be done on the various varmints or even water jugs or other targets set out in terrain that is typical to his hunting.
Once you have your gun zeroed there is little that a range can tell you aside from verification and to guage MOA consistancy. Field improvised positions are what will make a hunter a better shot in the field, and a flatter shooting round will aid in that.
Recoil won't be much of a factor if you stay under a box of heavy loads at a time.

Ballistics Results

Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
R308W3 Remington® Express® 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.383
R30065 Remington® Express® 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.383
R300W2 Remington® Express® 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 M 0.438


Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2620 2393 2178 1974 1782 1604
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2700 2469 2250 2042 1846 1663
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2960 2715 2482 2262 2052 1856


Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2743 2288 1896 1557 1269 1028
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2913 2436 2023 1666 1362 1105
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 3501 2945 2463 2044 1683 1375


Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 0.0 zero -1.5 -4.6 -9.5 -16.5
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.8 -15.4
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 0.1 0.6 zero -1.9 -5.1 -9.8


Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2.3 2.0 zero -3.8 -9.7 -28.3 -57.8
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -9.0 -26.3 -54.0
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2.7 3.1 2.2 zero -3.7 -15.9 -35.6


Note: These ballistics reflected a test barrel length of 24" except those for 30 Carbine and 44 Remington Magnum which are 20" barrels.
Specifications are nominal. Ballistics figures established in test barrels. Individual rifles may vary from test barrel results.
“zero” indicates yardage at which rifle was sighted in.
* Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.
1 Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
2 Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
† 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington are interchangeable.
‡ 6mm Remington and 244 Remington are interchangeable.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

Hunting elk out west I would not go below a 30-06 with 180 gr bullets. If you are serous about hunting elk you should go to 300 win mag or anyof the larger calibers, 325 WSM, 300 WSM or any of the 338's. Recoil can be managed when practicing. In the field you will not notice it. Also any of the calibers mentioned can be loaded down for practice. Also try to get a light rifle. Every ounce becomes pounds in the mountians.

Sember Fi

P.S. I got a 6x6 bull and a cow with my 325 WSM this season.

 

[ArmedBear]

As you look at those numbers above, I think it's important to remember that bullet expansion requires certain amount of velocity, and it burns up a certain amount of energy.

1700 fps (more realistic than 1782 from a "test barrel") at 400 yards offers a lot less expansion and penetration than you'd want (see the above post about butchering an elk and finding a bullet in it).

The 2000 fps from the WinMag doesn't sound like a lot more, until you consider the differences in expansion and penetration.

That's what I meant when I said that the .308 isn't a 400 yard elk round. Sure, you can hit something at 400 yards if you know the drop. Terminal performance is another matter.

 

[Mike Sr.]

Deleted..

 

[12many]

navaide +1

Rifles only have recoil when at the range, when hunting, the recoil magically goes away.

I vote for 30-06. We used it with success in Montana.

 

[jkingrph]

Never had a .308, never hunted elk. My first centerfire rifle back in '63 was a 30-06 so I would personally stick with it. In my opinion it is a little more capable with heavier bullets and on the heavier game, not a lot, but just a step above. I have several rifles in 30-06 and just do not see the need for a .308.

 

[okespe04]

I just went through the same thing. I went with the 30.06. The main reason being the wide range of bullets and more versatility over all. From varmint to elephant the 30.06 has been doing it all for over 100 years. There are a number of low recoil factory cartridges out there for smaller game or you can get a really hot 250 grain that will knock you on your butt.

 

[blackops]

Out of the two 30-06, but a 7 mag would be best.

 

[Lucky Strike]

thanks again for the suggestions...i'm for sure going to get a .30-06 now

Any opinions on which rifle to get?

I'd like to keep it below $600....i was looking at Tikka, Ruger Hawkeye, and Savage

 

[41magsnub]

I can't speak for the other two but I love my Savage 110 .30-06. With me shooting it, it is about 1.5 moa from a rest. If somebody who can stay off the caffeine were to shoot it I bet it would do a lot better. I like the trigger and the tang safety a lot.

My only complaint is the magazine seems wonky to me compared to my M77 or my M70. It seems harder than it should be to load it.

 

[Arkel23]

Go with the 30-06, and maybe think about something bigger.

 

[rbernie]

The Tikka will be the most accurate and best finished of the three, but you need to find which of these rifles fits you. I love the Tikka action, but their stocks simply do not fit me AT ALL.

 

[Heck]

I love the Tikka. Sweet shooters, butter smooth action. I will have one!!

 

[Uncle Mike]

The Tikka will be the most accurate and best finished of the three,

What!?!..... WOW! I would have to see that!

 

[52grain]

A lot of people seem to be focusing on the elk hunting (nice rack by the way). But it sounds like the vast majority of the usage will be at the range. What type of shooting do you plan to do at the range? What distances?

The problem is that that the gun that is going to be best at the range is probably something with a heavy barrel. But that will not be a good idea for hunting over the terrain that you will be hunting. Is maybe the best option to buy a gun for the range (Tikka, CZ, Savage, Remington, etc) and keep borrowing what you have been for a year or two until you can afford a sporter for hunting?

The alternative is to buy a sporter and then get a target gun later, but either way I think you need to pick the ideal rig (gun, scope, etc) for each application and find a way to work towards owning both. If you try to buy one gun for both applications you will wind up with one tool that does OK but not ideal or maybe even well for both.

 

[MistWolf]

Buy the '06. With premium bullets, I don't think you have to go as heavy as 180 gr. for elk.

As for the rest of the year, shoot some at the range, but even more out hunting jackrabbits. Good excercise, sharpen the eye and get to know the terrain

 

[Lucky Strike]

A lot of people seem to be focusing on the elk hunting (nice rack by the way). But it sounds like the vast majority of the usage will be at the range. What type of shooting do you plan to do at the range? What distances?

The problem is that that the gun that is going to be best at the range is probably something with a heavy barrel. But that will not be a good idea for hunting over the terrain that you will be hunting. Is maybe the best option to buy a gun for the range (Tikka, CZ, Savage, Remington, etc) and keep borrowing what you have been for a year or two until you can afford a sporter for hunting?

The alternative is to buy a sporter and then get a target gun later, but either way I think you need to pick the ideal rig (gun, scope, etc) for each application and find a way to work towards owning both. If you try to buy one gun for both applications you will wind up with one tool that does OK but not ideal or maybe even well for both.

When at the range i would probably be doing a mix of bench and "hunting" shooting positions like kneeling and prone. Distances would be either 100, 200 or 300yds. I think they open up the 600yd range a couple times a month so there will be the rare session at that distance.

I hear what you're saying about two guns but I've got a gun related "to buy" list and a second bolt action would be towards the back of the priority list.

I actually don't mind humping around the rifle I've been borrowing since I'm only doing it for 5 days. I weighed it earlier today and with the old redfield scope and sling that's attached to it the thing weighs 9.7lbs. I use a viking tactical quick adjust sling from my ar15 and the rifle sits close to my chest while i'm walking and this makes it carry more comfortably then a regular sling.

My thinking is if I get a standard weight rifle in the 7.5 to 8lb range it'll still be "heavy enough" for range use but almost a pound lighter then the one I'm used to so it'll make it a little nicer for my yearly elk trip. I'm obviously compromising on both spectrums but I don't target shoot for competitions, my range time is just for fun/to get better if I eventually get a shot on an elk so if I can't get down to 3/4 or 1/2 100yd groups then it's not going to bum me out.

oh and unfortunately that's not an elk that I killed....just a picture i found online to show what kinda terrain we're in.


I do need to get to the gun shop and start shouldering various guns to see which fits me best....hoping I find a tikka i like as I've been hearing nothing but good things about them.

 

[52grain]

When at the range i would probably be doing a mix of bench and "hunting" shooting positions like kneeling and prone. Distances would be either 100, 200 or 300yds. I think they open up the 600yd range a couple times a month so there will be the rare session at that distance.

I hear what you're saying about two guns but I've got a gun related "to buy" list and a second bolt action would be towards the back of the priority list.

I actually don't mind humping around the rifle I've been borrowing since I'm only doing it for 5 days. I weighed it earlier today and with the old redfield scope and sling that's attached to it the thing weighs 9.7lbs. I use a viking tactical quick adjust sling from my ar15 and the rifle sits close to my chest while i'm walking and this makes it carry more comfortably then a regular sling.

My thinking is if I get a standard weight rifle in the 7.5 to 8lb range it'll still be "heavy enough" for range use but almost a pound lighter then the one I'm used to so it'll make it a little nicer for my yearly elk trip. I'm obviously compromising on both spectrums but I don't target shoot for competitions, my range time is just for fun/to get better if I eventually get a shot on an elk so if I can't get down to 3/4 or 1/2 100yd groups then it's not going to bum me out.

oh and unfortunately that's not an elk that I killed....just a picture i found online to show what kinda terrain we're in.


I do need to get to the gun shop and start shouldering various guns to see which fits me best....hoping I find a tikka i like as I've been hearing nothing but good things about them.

It sounds like you've got a plan and if the main purpose of your range time is to be a better hunter, then a medium weight barrel is probably the right way to go. I'll vote for .30-06, especially if you reload.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I think the .308 would be fine for Elk, out to 200 yards or so. Beyond that, the 30-06 holds a significant energy advantage. Since the OP will most likely face shots beyond 200 yards, I'd go with the '06.

For what its worth, a co-worker of mine has killed several big bulls at 300 yards, with his .308, one shot drop.