Empty Chamber

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Shadow Shock

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One of my friend's family is being stalked. The mom has a Ruger .357, but borrowed a Remingtin 870 set up for HD with a shortened barrel and extended magazine tube. I was showing her how to operate the gun today as she hasn't had an opportunity to fire it. As we were discussing the stalker, she remarked that she was fully prepared to kill him, but would rather just scare him off. Then a thought hit me. The sound of a shotgun being cocked is an intimidating sound and gives confidence to the shooter. Now imagine you're a BG, just broke into a house, trying to be quiet, and you here "ch-chunk" from around the corner:what:. Chances are the ******* would be scared s***less. Now under normal circumstances, you'd just be losing the shell you had chambered. And it sounds a lot scarier slow than if you cock it fast, but with my 870, sometimes the round doesn't eject if you cock it slow. So I suggested that she leave the chamber empty. That way, she could scare the BG and simultaniously alert her teenage son and possibly embolden herself. She agreed heartily to it and I emptied the shotgun, dry fired it, and stuffed the shells back in the tube. She only has 5 shells anyways, so she's not reducing her capacity. She has enough firearms experience to not need 5 shells of 12ga 00 Buck anyways. I dry fired it so she can just reach under her bed, grab the gun, and cock it without having to deal with the lever on the front of the trigger gaurd.

Does anyone think this is a pretty good tactic to leave the chamber empty for the pourposes of scaring the intruder and hopefully not having to pull the trigger? Also it's a little safer.
 
There are a lot of people that would take the shotgun noise as an indication that it's time to leave.

Probably most folks.

Of course, we all know that a truly psycho killer ninja hitman wouldn't be afraid of a mere woman with a shotgun, so all bets are off in that case.

For me, having the shotgun safe with the chamber empty is worth more than the noise.

The other camp will be along in a minute to disagree with me...
 
I do not remember where I learned this factoid but the sound of a shotgun being racked is the second most recognizable sound to man, without regard to race, religion, nation of origin, or any other consideration. The first most recognizable sound is a baby crying.
 
Working the action would let the BG know that his next inflitration needs to be done differently.
Stopping the BG ends the problem.
 
The local sherrif has been out many times and told her "If you see him on you're property, shoot him. If he's still alive, shoot him again."

I think the most important part of cocking it is to wake up and allert anyone who didn't hear the break in. Tonight for instance, she has her two oldest daughters and their husband and boyfriend there. The oldest daughter and her husband both carry. The husband also will have his AK there from now on (the stocks are being restained today). So by cocking the shotgun, she has allerted 4 adaults, at least two of which would have guns, and 3 teen boys of the danger. The armed adaults could assist her while the others protected the two little girls in the house. And when it's just the 3 teen boys, her son will have her Ruger and can protect the others and his little sisters. Generally, you'd probobly be screwed if you broke in there.
 
Stalkers and burglars are completely different sorts of fish. A burglar has thousands of targets to choose from. If they hear a shotgun working they'll back away and find somewhere a bit less dangerous to work. A stalker has picked out ONE target. They can't just move a few houses further down the street and get what they want.

That means something (like chambering a round) that may drive away a thief for good will only slow a stalker.

Most of what I've read suggests storing defensive pump guns "cruiser ready" (action closed on empty chamber, magazine full). Depending on the gun some people suggest dry firing the EMPTY chamber so the gun is ready to be pumped without working any latch.

Just don't count on the stalker really changing their mind for good.
 
If she isn't familiar, and I mean truly familiar with the manual of arms of the pump shotgun she is carrying, I would replace it with a Double barrel or some other simpler weapon to deploy and use. The pump to be appropriately deployed, must be properly handled by trained personnel very familiar with combat with the shot gun. Many women handle the 20ga much more effectively than the 12ga in either pump, semi auto, or double barrel. At room distances the results are almost identical.

If the family know who the stalker is, get a restraining order, to make the police happy.

Then one of those son in laws or boy friends need to go have a chat with said stalker. This has nothing to do with the restraining order.

If they live in the boon docks or small town, sometimes stuff happens. Particularly helpful if the local sheriff and Prosecutors are on board. But rarely in big cities.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Experienced critters are used to having firearms pointed at them and vice versa. I would think very carefully about whether your assumption about the deterrent effect of racking the slide outweighs the risk of harm during the time it takes to do so.
 
I use a shotty for HD. And I can tell you this. No one will EVER hear the sound of that slide being racked in a self defense situation. The bg will be dead, so he won't hear it. Everyone else in the house will be deaf, so they won't hear it either.

One in the pipe, ready to rock. I don't want to lose that half second required to pump a shotty.

Second, action closed means you have to pull the trigger or fumble for that little release before you CAN pump it. I wouldn't trust someone who's not intimately familiar with the weapon to figure that out in the adrenaline blitz. I could see someone panicking and being found dead with a fully loaded shot gun, an empty chamber, and a dislocated wrist from trying to pump that locked action.
 
The key to this is practice handling shotguns at a safe place!! Ask me what occurs when you touch off a shell of 410 birdshot inside a house!! Dumb I know, lucky too, I took out a good chunk of a hallway door, penetrated the closet and perforated my father in laws suits. He got a new wardrobe as a result of that mistake. No one hurt but we were all in shock. I was showing my sister in law how to load an over under and closed the action. I honestly do not think I pressed the trigger. I was impressed at the damage the 410 did and thank God no one was in the lane of fire.
 
If someone is stalking and broken into the house how does it make sense scaring them off so they can come back quietly and rape/kill you or your children in thier sleep? If she hasn't made the decision to use deadly force the firearms are not an asset, get a dog and some pepper spray. Have you covered target identification with her? Using the sons room as a safe room while calling 911 but ready to defend the room?
 
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First off, let me say that while I agree that the sound of a shotgun being pumped would scare away the majority of criminals that are looking for loot, I think that a stalker is going to be a different situation. It has been my experience that stalkers are in a completely different mindset. They typically are going to have some mental block or disability. Don't misunderstand that and think that I'm calling them stupid. I'm not. But a large portion of our inmates in the US do have some form of mental issue. This can be especially problematic with people that are stalkers and obsessed.

I want to raise the question that I'm amazed has eluded so many other people.
WHY do you think the sound of a shotgun would alert the others staying at the house to an intruder? That's not sarcasm. I'm just curious. Is it a small house? Is it an apartment? What's going on with it? I, personally, would be awakened by a shotgun being pumped only if I was in the same room when it happened. If it was a room or two away, or if my door was closed, I can't imagine that helping. And if the sound of a break-in didn't wake other people up, why would the sound of the shotgun action being worked do so?

Certainly, the sound of a shotgun being pumped would alert the intruder to possible danger, but you are forgetting that there are TWO things that could happen.
  1. The intruder could be scared off never to return.
  2. The intruder could hear the sound of the shotgun, and be alerted to the danger. The intruder would then know he needed to rush the room with all speed to ensure that she had a more difficult time shooting him, and would more likely be immediately violent

I am aware that your friend may have a difficult time coming to terms with the idea of ending a life, but with children in the house, I can only imagine that she would be more willing to do so if she were made to realize that they could be in very real danger, too, if she didn't take action. Put that in her head to think about, and I bet you she'd be 10x more likely to pull that trigger.

Also, I don't know how the financial situation is (I imagine since she's borrowing your shotgun instead of buying her own, it's not the most positive situation), but I would suggest several other things be done to help make the house less stalker friendly.

  • Add dead bolts to any doors.
  • Doors with glass windows which can be broken to gain entry should have dead bolts that require keys on both sides.
  • KEEP THE HOUSE LOCKED!!!
  • It might be late in the season now, but if you can, add big heavy shrubbery with lots of sticks and/or thorns outside any first floor windows (to prevent peeping or entry).
  • Contact a security company to purchase laminate sheets for any big windows. They're not outrageously priced, and they can prevent the window from being broken and allowing entry. I just googled glass laminate break proof, and I found http://home.securityfilm.biz/ That kind of stuff I'm referring to.
  • Install motion sensing lights (or regular lights and leave them on at night) around the outside. People are less likely to walk around outside if they are VERY visible. This also serves the purpose of allowing neighbors and/or police the ability to see clearly into the yard if he is stalking in it.

That's just the ol' police thought process kicking in, but I would make sure that was done if someone in my family was being stalked. It wouldn't matter what kind of gun they had.

If the idea is to alert the bad guy to the fact that she's armed and to awaken the adults for assistance and the children for safety, I think it would be a FAAAAR better idea for her to grab the shotgun, point it at the door or window the intruder is likely to be coming through, keep her finger OFF the trigger until she knows who the person entering is, yell for help (it's a lot more likely to awaken a household than a single pump of a shotgun is), and clearly state that she has a firearm and is prepared to use it (if she thinks that is likely to make him flee).

Lastly, I would recommend that the family come up with a plan of action. If this is serious enough for her to have a firearm, then it's serious enough for the family to put some thought into it.
  • If there IS an intruder, where are the kids supposed to go? Do they stay put and lock their doors? Run outside? Neighbor's house?
  • What "safe" phrase is in place? SERIOUSLY!!! If there are THREE adults with guns in the house, then they need to make sure that they don't shoot each other when they walk around the corner. They need to have some way to identify each other before popping a door open with a stressed out armed civilian on the other side.
  • Who's calling the police? Someone needs to be in charge of that.
  • Bullets will travel through walls. Period. I don't care what crap you hear from Bucky at the gunshop or Big_billy1952 at thehighroad.org (no offense to any billies registered here), but bullets penetrate walls, and a .223 will NOT disintegrate into a fine misty powder after hitting a wall, and be unable to injure someone on the other side. BULLETS KILL! And a 12g shotgun will penetrate MANY layers of drywall and boarding. Don't believe me? http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm Make sure everyone knows the direction and path of where bullets could be flying if she's shooting at someone walking through her door. You don't want to be collateral damage.

That's just my two cents, but I think those are some things that need to be considered. Having guns is a responsibility that needs to be taken seriously. She needs to know how to operate the firearm with her eyes closed, half-asleep, and while stumbling around over a pile of clothing. She wasn't familiar with it (so you said), but she needs to be, everyone ELSE needs to know their role, and if they can do some things around the house as situational prevention (like the lights, locks, and shrubbery), then they should. PREVENTING a crime is better than stopping a crime once it has begun. Hopefully the stalker will see his task as pointless and move on.

-magiaaron
 
Now imagine you're a BG, just broke into a house, trying to be quiet, and you here "ch-chunk" from around the corner
I imagine if I were a bad guy and I didn't want a violent encounter with the occupants, I would be there when they weren't. It seems only logical to assume that if someone is in your house when they know you're home, they're not worried about confronting you.

You're planning for the sound of a shotgun being pumped to wake up everyone in the house? Perhaps if it has an airhorn mounted on it otherwise I think you've let this magical movie sound and its abilities grow far too large. Secure the house so that someone trying to get in will have to make plenty of noise that will wake you up.
 
Sheesh!

A lot of assumptions here, and very little experience.

The sound of the pump may work, it may not. I don't keep rounds in the chambers of my fighting pump. I don't have to push any widgets to pump either. The slide is loose and ready to go. Yes the hammer has been lowered before the weapon was loaded.

If the VCA can get close enough, that the time it takes to pump your shotty is going to put you in trouble, your shotgun isn't going to get you out of trouble in either case. Your plan and your defenses have failed.

Defenses must come in layers. Several folks have mentioned some good ideas. Find the ones that can work for you. Not all can at all times or all places. Know your own ground, know it well. If they choose to fight on your ground, you should own them. Not by being aggressive, but by being smart. Force them to come to you, while you fight from cover if it should come to that. And all that, while the cavalry is on the way. (the cops)

If you are lucky and the VCA gets dead, it will be the cops who do the job. Saves you on time, money, and a lot of stress you or your family really don't want to have to go through if you can help it.

Get two books specifically if you are dealing with Stalkers. I had every female in my life, including my mother, sister, several female friends, wife and two daughters read. The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker.

He is rather anti gun, but his information is excellent. Both the Secret Service and the FBI use him and his firm on a consultant basis. I just add a firearms component that he avoids. Read his story and you will understand why he is anti gun. He is wrong, but I understand.

Obsession By John E. Douglas,Mark Olshaker: The FBI's Legendary Profiler Probes the Psyches of Killers, Rapists, and Stalkers and Their Victims and Tells how to Fight Back

both books are available on www.Amazon.com

I had my daughters read both.

Strongly recommended. Instead of this Internet BS, get it from the experts. Their experiences coincide with my own while working in both Jails and Prisons with these sort of criminals.

Unless you have truly worked with these folks, you do not realize what you are up against. Most LEO's don't either. That is why in many large departments there are special details to work these with special prosecuting attorney's too. Often out of the Sex victim squads.

Educate yourself, then act. Be efficient and effective. This is rarely going to be the fight you think.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Once again we have someone (the OP's mom) who thinks of firearms as a "magical talisman" that will somehow protect her without actually using it.

Please, help her get rid of this astoundingly stupid, Hollywood induced, idea.

If someone is going to have a firearm, especially for a situation like this, then they MUST be properly prepared with training, mindset, etc. in case (God forbid) they ever actually have to use it.

If the person in question does not have that commitment to "the big picture" of firearms ownership (especially for self defense) then they should make a different plan because depending on the "intimidation factor" of racking a shotgun pump is about as wise as assuming that traffic will stop for you at a Washington DC crosswalk!
 
Working the action of a firearm means that either your firearm wasn't ready for immediate use in your (and your family's) defense, OR that you have wasted a loaded round by ejecting it. Being a fairly practically minded person, the utility of either of those things escapes me utterly.

The NRA Personal Protection in the Home course doesn't say to work a shotgun action. It says (in so many words) to say, "I have a firearm and if you attempt to enter/come closer/etc., I will shoot you." That is COMPLETELY unambiguous and leaves NO doubts AT ALL.

If someone isn't impressed by THAT, the next thing they hear should be some sort of projectile penetrating their body, followed by the muzzle blast. The odds are they won't hear anything else.
 
Deanimator succinctly sums it up.

"Racking the slide" makes about as much sense as "brandishing" to scare off the BG.
 
+1 for Deanimator.

Shadow Shock said:

The local sherrif has been out many times and told her 'If you see him on you're property, shoot him. If he's still alive, shoot him again.'

I'd want that in writing so I would be brought up on murder charges for killing an already incapacitated bad guy. :scrutiny:

Doc2005
 
The first thing she needs is a good alarm system, with interior motion detectors.

I would not have her use a weapon she has not trained with. I think a shotgun is too big, unwieldy, complicated, and has too much recoil for this situation. You do still have to aim them, and after one shot of missed 00 buck the perp could be on her before she has a chance to fire a second shot.

I also think a house full of people and a potentially scared person with a weapon they have not trained with is not a good idea.

Be sure she has had some competent training with a handgun. I would buy her something like a Glock 19, with a lot more rounds than a revolver and a lot less recoil than a .357. No messing with a safety and a consistent trigger pull. She could easily CCW this also. You could even mount a light on it for her, as long as she is trained up.
 
There's a good chance of fumbling or short-stroking the slide rack under stress and just ending up with a jammed weapon :(

I don't keep a round chambered in my home defense long gun (rifle in my case). But I would (and indeed have in the past) if I had an active threat like your friends.
 
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