Encounters Outside the Home: The Common Denominator

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kleanbore

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
17,482
We read about and discuss all kinds of self defense scenarios here in ST&T. Scenarios discussed here include encounters at service stations, in parking lots, at cross-walks, in the driveway, in the yard, at ATMs, in stores and pharmacies, in parks and on trails, outside dormitories, and just about everywhere else one can imagine.

The details vary, as do the locations. However, in point of fact, every one of these scenarios, except for those that involve someone breaking into an occupied home or an armed robbery that is already in progress, is just another variation on the same theme. Someone encounters someone else who may pose a threat.

This is even true for the most recent scenario du jour--the so called "flash mob".

That point was driven home very effectively in a discussion of flash mobs; that thread was properly closed, but I think that one of the comments made in the thread is so valuable and so universal in its application that it bears repeating.

I refer to this one by Lee Lapin:

The 'default setting' for ST&T, the 'school solution' here, is ADEE.

What does ADEE mean?

AVOID

DE-ESCALATE/DISENGAGE

ESCAPE

EVADE

Our aim after all is to AVOID trouble whenever avoidance is possible, to DE-ESCALATE any confrontation that arises in spite of our best efforts, to DISENGAGE from the source of the confrontation, to ESCAPE the area, and EVADE being contacted again by the source of the confrontation.

IF WE CAN. ADEE isn't always possible. But when there are options available to us in dealing with a situation where interpersonal conflict is a possibility, be the source of that conflict an individual or a group, ADEE should be what we seek to do reflexively.

Anything else is likely to be defined as 'looking for trouble.' Like it or not, the accepted standard of conduct here in ST&T, our "rules of engagement" if you prefer that term, is ADEE.

If you dislike this concept, have a sit-down with your attorney and talk it over with him or her. See what their take on the concept is. Don't take my word for it, go talk to your attorney.

As stated, ADEE isn't always possible, but if it is, that advice applies to just about every kind of encounter that one can imagine, unless it involves an invasion of the home.

It is often said that if one has a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Similarly, there is a tendency to think "gun" when something that appears to be sinister presents itself.

It is always infinitely preferable to avoid even having to put one's hand on a firearm, if it can be avoided. As Lee implies, the possible legal consequences, both criminal and civil, are daunting.

That's not all. A gun in one's hand does not make one bulletproof. Our protagonist with his firearm risks being shot by the "threat" or by his accomplice, by an armed citizen, or by a law enforcement officer.

Most of us here believe that lawfully carrying a firearm for self defense is a prudent thing to do. It is important that we know how to use it and that we know the law in whatever jurisdiction that we happen to visit.

That means the law, not just the code. On that subject, it is a very good idea to avoid looking at the law in terms of trying to figure out when one is permitted to shoot. Rather, it would be more fruitful to focus on what one may not do in terms of drawing or pointing or shooting a firearm at someone under differing circumstances.

Again, this advice is probably rather universal when it comes to most outdoor scenarios.
 
Amen.

BTW, I took this position on "some other" firearms site some time ago, and was roundly criticized.

So, here I am.
 
Any martial arts instructor will tell you, the best tactic is NOT to be there when the punch is thrown.
Best,
Rob
 
Also remember the OODA loop:

Observe

Orient

Decide

Act

I believe you should do both ADEE and OODA at the same time.
 
I know I will not fumble with trying to recall and decode mnemonics in one of these situations. What I will do is try to extricate myself quickly without drawing my weapon if at all possible.
 
I know I will not fumble with trying to recall and decode mnemonics in one of these situations. What I will do is try to extricate myself quickly without drawing my weapon if at all possible.
Yes indeed.
 
Kleanbore,

I appreciate this thread, and I appreciate the replies so far.

Keep in mind, we have criminals that are not afraid of guns, knives, canes, or anything else we discuss around the forum to use defensively.

These folks are just flat mean and hard.
They have a mindset and skill sets to take you down. No, they do not have to be drunk, stoned, or both, they can do this sober and straight.

We speak of training and quality practice in S&T but the reality is, the criminal often has more training and practice than the law abiding citizen. They have 24 hours a day in which to "train" and "practice", and some have had "advanced" classes from "cell college". In jail/prison these criminals have to survive, and they learn from others more experienced and hardened than they.

Another point I feel that needs to be addressed is Law Enforcement and other Professionals, such as Firefighters and EMT's are trained, and continue training and certification to go TO trouble. Or to put it another way, "into harms way".

J.Q.Public, with a conceal weapon/ carry permit does not have a duty to go toward trouble.


Steve
 
J.Q.Public, with a conceal weapon/ carry permit does not have a duty to go toward trouble.

In my state he has no "duty to retreat" either. If you are any place that you otherwise have a legal right to be, either on private property or public property, there is no duty to retreat from an unlawful threat of violence. You may stand your ground and take whatever actions are necessary to defend yourself.
 
Owen Sparks said:
In my state he has no "duty to retreat" either. If you are any place that you otherwise have a legal right to be, either on private property or public property, there is no duty to retreat from an unlawful threat of violence. You may stand your ground and take whatever actions are necessary to defend yourself.
Of course there was Mark Abshire in gun friendly Oklahoma with a "Stand Your Ground" law. He defended his life and his family on his own lawn. Nonetheless, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.
 
Posted by Owen Sparks: In my state he has no "duty to retreat" either. If you are any place that you otherwise have a legal right to be, either on private property or public property, there is no duty to retreat from an unlawful threat of violence.
That is true in a lot of places.

However, retreat, if safely possible, is often the wise tactical thing to do.

You may stand your ground and take whatever actions are necessary to defend yourself.
Of course, it is then up to the actor to produce sufficient evidence that those actions were in fact immediately necessary. The fact of having attempted to retreat can serve as such evidence.

However, there are no guarantees. Remember the man in Arizona (another stand your ground state) who was unable to retreat when attacked by three unarmed assailants and who resorted to the use of his firearm as a last resort as he was being knocked unconscious. Jail, two trials, and bankrupted, but finally found innocent.

If it is safely possible, to escape is always the thing to do.
 
What are some scenarios where an attempt to escape would be prudent and some where it would not?

OK, I’m pretty clear on this one.
DE-ESCALATE/DISENGAGE
This one too; pride is probably the biggest obstacle for most of us. I'm not saying I wouldn't attempt to de-escalate, just saying pride is something that has to be keep in check.
I’m a little fuzzy here. If my attempts at avoidance and then de-escalation failed, now it’s time to escape (or face the threat). I’m mid thirties, 15 lbs over weight (read 25 lbs over fighting weight) and although I’m 6.1, that’s 6’1” of European decent (long torso, short legs). I’m no track star, never was.
If we’ve gotten to the point where I was unable to avoid and unable to de-escalate, in my mind it sounds like the threat has managed to get close enough to me that my remaining choices are fight or flight. Assuming that in this quickly escalating and stressful situation, the choice to run or fight will be a rational one, not an impulse, what basic process would you go through to make that decision? If escaping, isn’t it necessary to take your eyes off the threat? If so, do you just run as fast as possible, hoping the threat does not pursue or is incapable of catching up?
If the choice to escape is made and acted on prior to the threat closing enough distance to be an immediate threat, then I guess that’s avoidance, correct?
I guess I understand this; escape was my choice and the threat has decided to pursue. Now I’m looking for a place to hide or obstacles to put between us.

Not trying to pick this apart; just trying to understand (and yes I was that kid that asked all the questions in class:)).
 
Posted by MtnCreek: Assuming that in this quickly escalating and stressful situation, the choice to run or fight will be a rational one, not an impulse, what basic process would you go through to make that decision?
The process involves simply determining whether escape is safely possible--i.e., answering the question whether there is anywhere safe to go, and if the answer is yes, answering the question whether one can get there safely. Two yes answers lead to one decision, and one no answer leads to another.

Whether the attacker has displayed a firearm will influence the answer.

If escaping, isn’t it necessary to take your eyes off the threat?
Maybe, but so does determining whether there is someone else who presents a threat at the same time.

If so, do you just run as fast as possible, hoping the threat does not pursue or is incapable of catching up?
Only if I am driving and do not know the way to a police station..

Neither my speed nor my endurance is what it once was, and if I am with my wife I am really limited.

Reasonable choices if available might include stepping into a store or restaurant, or moving to cover or concealment.
 
In my early 20's I used the RLH method.......(run like hell) when four guys pulled up at an intersection and and got out of their vehicle with baseball bats. I didn't own a gun at the time. Now at 46 since I can't run like I used to I would have to resort to the PTTAFAYC method.....(pull the trigger as fast as you can.) But avoidance is certainly the best method as their will always be some snot nosed lawyer who needs to make a name for himself and try to put you behind bars for defending yourself.
 
Posted by offonroad: ...lawyer who needs to make a name for himself and try to put you behind bars for defending yourself.
Let's understand something.

You defend yourself. You know what happened.

The other guy says " 't ain't so". So does his accomplice.

A witness wasn't really paying attention, and what he or she recalls and honestly believes differs from your account, damaging your case and your credibility.

Perhaps your empties have blown in the wind, and their location is inconsistent with your account.

Perhaps his empties rolled into a sewer and are long gone.

The only incontrovertible evidence consists of your bullets in the parson whom you call the bad guy.

Do you really believe that the motivation of the prosecutor, whom we pay to convict criminals, is to "make a name for himself and try to put you behind bars for defending yourself"?

How is he or she to know that you were defending yourself?

How would you as a juror decide?
 
MtnCreek said:
What are some scenarios where an attempt to escape would be prudent and some where it would not?

OK, I’m pretty clear on this one.
DE-ESCALATE/DISENGAGE
This one too; pride is probably the biggest obstacle for most of us. I'm not saying I wouldn't attempt to de-escalate, just saying pride is something that has to be keep in check.
I’m a little fuzzy here. If my attempts at avoidance and then de-escalation failed, now it’s time to escape (or face the threat). ...
I guess I understand this; escape was my choice and the threat has decided to pursue...
As far as scenarios, that of course depends on exactly what's happening and how it's happening. The point is that if something bad starts to happen, one needs to consider the possibilities for avoiding, de-escalating, escaping and evading as part of the assessment of the situation.

And even if you conclude that you have no option but to use force to defend yourself, you will most likely ultimately have to be able to articulate exactly why under the circumstances presented you did not have the option to avoid, etc. (And if you used lethal force, you will need to be able to articulate why a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances would have concluded that lethal force satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification (e. g., was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily injury of an innocent). And see this post for an outline of how a claim of self defense works in the legal aftermath of a use of force.)

And yes, you will need to make a lot of decisions very, very quickly. That's one reason why training can be so important. In an emergency, you will have very little time in which to assess the situation and decide what you're going to do about it; so you don't want to have to waste time figuring out how to make your gun work.

Kleanbore said:
offonroad said:
...lawyer who needs to make a name for himself and try to put you behind bars for defending yourself.
...Do you really believe that the motivation of the prosecutor, whom we pay to convict criminals, is to "make a name for himself and try to put you behind bars for defending yourself"?

How is he or she to know that you were defending yourself?
+1

Remember that our society takes a very dim view of one person intentionally injuring another. Our law recognizes that at times doing so may be justified; but unless and until the evidence clearly shows that your intentional act of extreme violence causing grave injury to another human was justified, you are reasonably suspected of having committed a criminal act.

If the evidence creates probable cause to believe that a criminal assault had been committed and that you did it, you will be charged and put on trial. The prosecutor doing so isn't necessarily trying to make a name for himself; he is just doing the job he's been hired to do. And at then it becomes up to you to demonstrate that you were justified.
 
I've said this before and the following story proves it strongly IMO, we can't always pick where an attack may take place but you can choose where you live. I pay attention to who the Sheriff, DA and Judges are in my county. If you spend 95% of your time in a county or city that is anti gun and anti self defence, statistically if you defend yourself using deadly force you will probably be prosecuted.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dou...-under-fl-stand-your-ground-self-defense-law/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top