Soybomb wrote:
Why is a gun fighter qualified to tell me what round is a good stopper?
Because a gun fighter actually shoots people, he’s there when others get shot, sees the product “field tested”, shall we say. Your doctors speculate on what happened afterwards.
That’s precisely why the LAST word on weather a round works or not comes from the police officers, soldiers and civilians that actually get to use it. I explained this before, why is it so hard for you to understand? It’s a simple enough concept, testing a product.
We need to look at a sample of a large number of victims and look at the variables that were involved in the shooting. How many guys do you think a person would have to shoot before he could speak with authority on what works and what doesn't?
You’d be surprised. In a place like this it’s hard to tell how many people get shot. Gabe Suarez talked to some police officers here that have been in over 50 gunfights. It’s not uncommon to hear about a cop dumping a body in the river just to avoid paper work, or throwing the corpse in someone’s else jurisdiction to avoid the troubles too, kind of a local prank/joke here in the Southern suburbs of Buenos Aires, places like Dock Sud where bad guys open carry around the street as it were the far west, even though illegal. Civilians getting involved in shootings is also pretty common.
I don’t base myself on one or two cases or shooters, I take into account many before I form an opinion.
The example I gave you about the efficiency of 45 ACP FMJ is a good example. When you collect over a dozen opinions by cops who remember the round’s efficiency with a smile, I know that it is pretty effective stuff, specially when I found none that told me that it didn’t work. as expected.
This seems like an attack on their character more than their work to me.
You feel that I’m attacking them because I said they shoot gelatin? Why is that a sore spot for you? That’s what some “experts” base their opinions on, and those are the “experts” I have no use for. I’m sorry if you don’t like that. There are other experts that take into account what I talked about before: facts. Sanow comes up with very interesting results for 1 shot stops. It’s really good information, as long as you understand that it’s a %, and one based on just one shot stops.
I'm saying I'm reading papers from guys with medical training to the extent of being trauma surgeons and being experts in gun shot wounds and you're saying their opinions are irrelevant because they sometimes use a tissue simulant as a way to benchmark ammunition performance?
Pretty much, yes. Specially those who use that “tissue simulant” to such an extent that they end up believing it’s the final word on ammunition efficiency. Don’t worry, I’ll really listen to them once the planet gets invaded by gelatin blocks. While I worry about people with flesh, fat, BONES, veins and arteries and organs full of liquids, organs with different kind of elasticity and a nervous system that goes through all that, I’ll keep listening to the gunfighters rather than gelatin shooters. The bone structure alone is more than enough of a factor to prove that you cant base your decision on gelatin. I take them into account, but gelatin experiments ( get over it, it’s gelatin, not “tissue simulant”
) are only part of the equation, and it’s never more important than on field results.
Right and these trauma surgeons and the like are telling me the energy a handgun round imparts isn't enough to cause destruction by stretching to most tissue. Why are they wrong?
Because of facts that prove otherwise.
You think a 357 magnum, 124 grain JHP traveling at 1400 fps wont cause destruction when it penetrates a body, other than the permanent cavity?
A firearms instructor I trained with some time ago (he’s also a cop, police instructor, also works in governmental VIP protection) told me about this shooting he was involved in, where a suspect was shot in the side of the head with a 357 magnum , the projectile generated enough pressure that the eyeballs came out of their sockets, one eye came completely detached.
Someone here on the internet in another forum said something similar, about an eye getting popped out because of a head shot. I don’t trust much what I read here but it’s pretty similar to what Baigorria ( the instructor) talked about.
I don’t think I’ll change your opinion, any more than I can convince someone that thinks that only a CNS ( brain or spine shot) or blood loss stops a man, is wrong.
We've been through a huge list of ballistics experts and the peer reviewed work that says "hydraulic shock" and the idea of termporary cavitation from handguns being a factor in stopping attackers is bunk and outside of inelastic organs like the liver and brain isn't going be severe enough to destroy tissue. Where are the papers that refute this and show me the dissenting opinion you're presenting is actually true?
You are obsessed with destroying tissue.
The nerves that connect the eyeballs to the head are neither brain nor liver and they got damaged enough. Don’t be so obsessed with destroying tissue, there’s so much more to stopping power than that.
How do you know a "terrible pain wave shocked" him into almost losing consciousness?
Because I saw how be dropped like a corpse and stayed there without moving. I told you it was caught on camera.
Is the shock from pain? Is it from energy dump?
Probably both, either way it was NOT penetration or tissue destruction, was it?
Does energy dump cause the pain?
Yes, it does.
What about the people who get shot with a .32 and quit fighting?
Who knows? A head shot, a scared person overreacting, some large nerve getting hit, a shot in the groin, liver, heart. Some people get shot with a 22 LR once and go down, others get shot with a 44 magnum and run for a block or two.
Is there any evidence this happens on a larger scale so I know the idea of getting shot wasn't all it took and he would have dropped like a sack of potatos from a .32 as well?
Yes, LTL ammo gets used a lot here in riots. The box of ammo itself says that it CAN be lethal within 10M with a direct hit, so you should always look for walls or floor to bounce the plastic pellets and avoid direct hits. Close range LTL shots are very impressive, even throwing people off balance sometimes. Again, it is not lead or handgun ammo, but it proves that energy transferred does work in both killing and even more important , stopping a person.
We're still talking about service caliber handguns here. The rules all change when we go to long arms because of the tremendous difference in energy between them and handguns. All the documentation I've posted has been around handguns and explicitly mentioned it as have I several times.
You don’t like my example because it proves that a person can be stopped, even killed without significant penetration. The energy is greater but it’s transmitted without penetrating, a JHP or big bore handgun round transmits less energy but it does so directly into the organs, along with a deep permanent wound cavity and even greater temporary cavity.
FerFAL
