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England gun control statistics

Discussion in 'Legal' started by client32, Jun 8, 2004.

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  1. client32

    client32 Member

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    I read this in another thread.

    I was wondering where I could go to get these and other statistics from an official source.

    I've been in a friendly office debate about this, and the office libral like to say that gun control has helped london and that I should compare the crime rates of london and new york. I was just wondering if anyone had a good link for this.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Brat7748

    Brat7748 Member

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  3. Librarian

    Librarian Member

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    Bureau of Justice Statistics is a decent place to start. Note that cross-country comparisons are difficult, and UK is in the midst of redefining a number of crimes and the reporting year, so year-to-year comparisons are worse than difficult.
     
  4. agricola

    agricola Member

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    yawn

    murder, rape and serious assault (ie what would be a GBH/GBH W/I) are higher in the US than the UK, both in terms of numbers and rates.

    British Police are not "routinely armed".

    Killing assailants does not result in "a life sentence" - the three cases I suspect Malcolm refers to were clearly not done in self defence.

    There is also no restriction on the right of self defence (aside from that the force used must be reasonable)
     
  5. WT

    WT Member

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    Here is a link to the London Metropolitan Police Department statistics website. I do believe this is about as "official" as one can get regarding London crime.

    http://www.met.police.uk/crimestatistics/index.htm


    A quick glance tells me that the murder rate in London is about 1/3 that of New York City.
     
  6. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    Comparing England to the US is apples and oranges.

    The only way to decide if gun control has "worked" in England is to compare crime in England before their bans, to crime in England after their bans. Crime in the US doesn't have anything to do with it.

    I think you will find that almost all crime in England has been on the rise since the bans took effect. Don't know where you would find an official source.
     
  7. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    More like a Vertical accent at 3000fps....

    Official Sources in the UK are Unreliable & totally Inaccurate at best, the government tries to bury/debunk most info that might cast a negative light on the uk, Especially info in relation to "Pet Projects" like gun control.

    & more or less certan somone will try & make me out to be a Liar for saying this much...:rolleyes: :barf:
     
  8. Iain

    Iain Member

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    This info might be part of the cover-up I can't say for sure.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3351923.stm# - go down the page to where it says on the right hand side 'At a Glance - Gun Crime Statistics' Click on open.

    You're not going to like the comparision with the US on page 2 but as a previous poster stated it is all 'apples and oranges'. Page 3 is very interesting, as is page 4.

    Ok. If I said - 'Lots of guns in America. Lots of people die due to guns. It's all the fault of the guns and gun culture' - I would be making an argument based on a flawed cause and effect theory. it could be that multiple factors have caused the rise in gun crime in this country, drug violence and all that, same as everywhere in the Western world.
     
  9. boofus

    boofus Guest

    [​IMG]
    There is no crime in Britain. It is a lie of the American satans.
    I have seen no violent criminals here.
    All the criminals commit suicide in the countryside.
    No one is a victim of crime here.
     
  10. client32

    client32 Member

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    Thanks for all of the links. I haven't looked through all of them yet. When I did a search for things of this sort before, I always came across stats using "gun crimes" instead of total crimes. I don't know I don't know what the comparison would be that way.

    I don't remember the old sitcoms name, but the dialog goes something like:
    Person A - "Over X-number of people were kill last year by a gun."
    Person B - "Would you be happier if they were stabbed instead?"
     
  11. agricola

    agricola Member

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    zedicus,

    i didnt call you a liar for that, i called you a liar for all the other lies you dished out in the past.
     
  12. fallingblock

    fallingblock Member

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    It's sort of like a religion.....

    This "I'll call you a liar-it makes me feel all smug and supercilious".

    Lambert seems to be the high priest.:D
     
  13. publius

    publius Member

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    client32,

    You can find countries with strict gun control and lots of violent crime (Brazil, Russia). You can also find countries with very high rates of gun ownership and very little crime (Switzerland).

    In England, as this thread shows, the gun grabbers are concerned about rising violent crime rates. Around here, folks like to say that they're experiencing that increase because of increased gun grabbing, but I doubt it. Again, you can find low-crime countries with even more strict gun laws than England's.

    You can have a peaceful society with or without widespread firearms ownership. I'll take mine with, thank you. :D
     
  14. Iain

    Iain Member

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    Publius,

    Thank you for a sophisticated interpretation of crime around the world and its relation to gun legislation. As I have said above, saying 'gun bans happened, all crime rose' is most probably flawed 'cause and effect'. 'A' happening and subsequently 'B' occurs does not prove that 'A' caused 'B'. So I can't say definitively if drugs, guns, illegal immigrants or the French are to blame because my understanding is not great enough. These are all posited as causes though (except the French, although I'm willing to believe) and I would guess that those and more are factors. I'm afraid guns aren't a big factor, not many people had guns prior to 1997, the effect they may have had on crime was probably statistically very minor.

    We can argue for an eternity whether or not a widespread armed and responsible British public, able to concealed carry and the rest, may have an effect on crime. I am willing to believe that you guys may be 100% correct. But this was not the situation prior to 1997 or the post Hungerford ban. Therefore I suggest that those bans are not by any means the single most important factor in any rise in crime in Britain. I would agree that they have done nothing to prevent gun crime, but they have not caused it to rise, in my opinion.
     
  15. agricola

    agricola Member

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    fallingblock,

    do you recall what Zedicus wrote? there were more than a few instances of him making up news stories in order to illustrate his points, which is what i was referring to.
     
  16. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    I’m not sure if you realize it or not, but you’re falling into a trap regardless of what the statistics say.

    If the statistics “prove†there’s a correlation (though not a causation…) between more gun control and less crime in England, then your coworker automatically wins.

    If the statistics “prove†there’s a correlation (though not a causation…) between more gun control and higher crime in England (or anywhere else), then you have implied that gun control would be perfectly acceptable if it lowered crime.

    That’s why I never bring up crime statistics when I debate gun control. When it comes to my right to keep and bear arms, I couldn’t care less what the statistics have to say. Does gun control increase crime? Does gun control reduce crime? I don’t care. Since when is the practice of a God-given right contingent on statistics?

    Tell this to your coworker:

    “Let’s assume for the sake of argument that gun control reduces violent crime. This may sound very insensitive, but lowering the homicide rate is not worth losing my freedom. I would rather have the homicide rate stay right where it is than give up some of my freedos.â€

    That’ll shut him up.
     
  17. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    Another Trap is the Per Capita Level, which is allways Ignored....
    It's a Favorete Trap of much of the mainstream UK Media.:barf:
     
  18. Fastlane

    Fastlane Member

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    Molon labe:

    Good Post....;)
     
  19. TimRB

    TimRB Member

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    " I would rather have the homicide rate stay right where it is than give up some of my freedoms.

    That’ll shut him up."

    Molon Labe, I absolutely agree with your point of view, but I have had many discussions with antis, and I am here to tell you if you say something like that, it *never* shuts them up. Usually it triggers a "for the children" argument. It also normally will cause them to dismiss whatever else you may say since, in their eyes, you have proven yourself to be some sort of a nut.

    Tim
     
  20. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Yea, you’re right. They never seem to shut up.

    I’ve been active in the gun culture for quite a while now. I have been involved in countless gun control debates, mostly on-line. There was a time when I was very up-to-date on the relevant court rulings, statistics, research studies, 2nd Amendment arguments, etc. I would argue for hours and hours and hours on what the real intended meaning of the 2nd Amendment was, on the meaning of the Miller case, on John Lott’s statistics, etc. etc. etc. etc. I would also spend a good many hours writing my congress critters, senators, the NRA, the GOA, and anyone else who might care or listen.

    But then I had an “awakening†moment. Suddenly, everything was clear. And simple.

    I realized we all have God-given rights. Period. End of story.

    I realized statistics have nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I now ignore the statistics. Even the "good" ones.

    I realized court decisions – even SCOTUS - have absolutely nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I now ignore court decisions as they pertain to my rights. Even the "good" ones.

    I realized the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with my God-given right to keep and bear arms. So I never bring up the 2nd Amendment when discussing my rights.

    So there you have it: When talking about my right to keep and bear arms, I rarely (if ever) bring up statistics, court decisions, and/or the 2nd Amendment, as doing so would imply their existence is a prerequisite to the existence my rights. They’re not. They can all disappear, and my rights would still be fully intact.

    Do you see what I’m getting at? Most of us in the gun culture have been fooled into believing a lot of things must exist (court rulings, 2nd Amendment, etc.) before we can claim to possess a right to keep and bear arms. We don’t need these things. We’ve been fooled.

    So how do I argue with the antis now?

    Anti-gunner: You don’t have a right to have guns. They’re only for the National Guard. Do you know what “well regulated†means? Blaa blaa blaa blaa

    Me: Is that right?

    Anti-gunner: Yea. (Anticipating a debate.)

    Me: Come and get 'em.

    After that, I can't think of a whole lot more to say.
     
  21. mrapathy2000

    mrapathy2000 member

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    hows that old saying go. statistics dont lie,but liers use statistics.
     
  22. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    It seems to me that merely comparing homicide rates doesn't give any sort of true picture of comparative good/bad as to crime.

    In the U.S., separating the world of ghetto/drug-related homicides from the rest brings our homicide rate down below that of some of the European countries. IOW, we can identify--already have identified--a significant problem sector. For the vast majority of people in the U.S., they're as safe as anybody in Europe.

    The comparative statistic I find to relate to the guns argument has to do with robberies within one's home. I was raised to believe that one's home is sacrosanct, at least for the law-abiding. Any means necessary to defend it against criminal intruders is, IMO, moral and legitimate. Any governmental actions which militate against this concept are immoral and degrading. It is in this arena that the U.S. is far more moral than the English--or many other countries, for that matter.

    I grant that few governments, anywhere, are particularly concerned with such concepts as honor, self-respect and pride in one's liberty. I note that it is hard to keep one's self-respect if one is forced to yield, willy-nilly, to some home invader. To beg for one's possessions and/or life is repugnant.

    Rant mode off.

    Art
     
  23. agricola

    agricola Member

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    Art,

    what do you think a good many of our murders are?
     
  24. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    ag, probably the same? That's why I focussed my own point on the issue of the sanctity of one's home insofar as the law is concerned.

    Question: Are the homicide rates in the other western European countries tied as much to drugs as is the case in the U.S. or Britain?

    Art
     
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