English Big Cats

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Sorry if it is the wrong forum, initially did start out with hunting in mind, it has changed a bit since then. Move it if you want to, I have no objections.

I have heard it said that cats are capable of making a viable breeding population out of ridiculously low numbers. Floridean ''panthers'' show this. Some are claiming as many as fifty cats in Scotland, although I think that ridiculous. Another claim is that there are as many as twenty cougars in England. They might just make a go of it.
 
I have lived in cougar country for 11 years now, and even though I have no doubt that there's at least one within a mile of me as I write this, I have never seen one. Sometimes hear them at night, and the former owner of my house saw them in the back yard. A couple years ago one was caught in the middle of town- wandered in through a greenbelt. They are very shy creatures as a rule, although attacks are on the rise. I strongly disagree with the "let's hunt them down if they show their faces" attitude. I choose to live in cougar country, and they have as much right to be here as I do. I would shoot one if it came after me or my kids, but I sure wouldn't go looking for one.
 
There are buildings in the photo's you posted, which just proves my point!

I've traveled throughout Great Britain, including Wales and Western and Northern Scotland which you consider "wild" and I would consider quite crowded. There certainly isn't anywhere where you can really get away from people. Pick up a pair of binoculars and you'll see hikers and climbers on every mountain. Look at the valleys and you'll see homes and farms lining all the bottoms.
But of course, these cats are being seen in Southern England rather than the highlands of Scotland, and the region is almost entirely developed in farms or small pasture plots for sheep and cattle. I don't think there is a place anywhere in the region where you can get out of sight of a house or road.

I will grant that cats are secretive and nocturnal creatures that aren't seen often even where they are common. But the tracks wouldn't be dismissed by even the casual observer. I'm more familiar with wolves than cats, but both animals are similar in that the tracks are larger for weight than that of domestic dogs. In other words, a 100 pound dog might have a track 3 inches across. A 100 pound wolf or lion might have a track 4 or 4 1/2 inches across - designed to spread weight on snow. You'd notice such a track and you might even think it belonged to an animal far larger than it actually is.

So, if a farmer was putzing around near the fence bordering his property and saw such tracks in the mud or snow, he would certainly take note. Even if he thought it was enormous dog running loose, he'd take note. And since cats tend to lay up in the same locale every day, there would be a plethora of tracks leading into and out of the area.

As for dog kills... Many such kills might be a case of "worrying the animal to death", but they follow no real pattern because dogs have no instinctive pattern for killing large prey. If a large dog finds an injured deer or sheep (perhaps hit by a car) it may very well grab it by the neck and kill in "cat fashion". And dogs have claws too - an animal flailing around is going to end up with claw scratches. Haven't you ever been scratched while playfully wrestling around with a large dog?

And you have to note that in these kills nobody ever seems to collect any DNA from the saliva on the bite marks. Nobody ever makes plaster casts of the tracks around the kill. Nobody ever find hairs on the sheep that belong to a lion or leopard. These "experts" aren't experts!

Keith
 
"Viable breeding population" just means there's enough cats to reproduce without the whole population collapsing. Frankly, given genetic diversity between individuals, it's likely that at one time the viable breeding population of all cheetahs consisted of maybe two or three individuals. The reason the Florida population of cougars stays as small as it is is in large part because the adult cats keep getting killed, mostly roadkilled, not because of some ecological property keeping them from breeding more and expanding their population. (They also have low fecundity, but this is from over a century of inbreeding, which would not apply to British cats.) Again: I can see cougars surviving quite nicely in the British countryside. But unless they're on birth control pills, I can't see them surviving as legend alone for so long. I realize there are very large areas of England and Wales that are uninhabited; but the thing is, a "very large" area to a human is good enough for a few territories, no more, for cougars. And, again: while cougars include small prey in their diets and can survive on it, their natural instinct is to search for larger prey. In areas with few deer, a cougar behaving normally would then turn to livestock.

While there are dogs that as big as cougars, the tracks are really not at all difficult to distinguish from one another. Dogs have a symmetrical print that usually shows clawmarks, all felids have an asymmetrical print that usually does not. If the people doing the identifications can't distinguish between something as basic as a canid and a felid, I can't imagine they can i.d. a cougar by call or from a distance/blurry photo either. I also agree with the fellow who pointed out that there is nothing in the pictures providing scale, and disagree that a cougar has proportions so radically different from a domestic cat that they can be told without scale. Several breeds of domestic cat (Abyssinian and Traditional Siamese, to name two common ones) have long, lanky bodies, long tails, and small heads- I've got one sprawled on my computer monitor right now, and from a distance, in profile, without scale, he looks cougarish too. (The "lynxlike" cat in the other picture is almost certainly, upon further examination, a Scottish wildcat or a domestic/wildcat hybrid. The proportions, coat, color, and tail are correct.)

Wildcat and wildcat hybrid pics

I've read the reports of the Surrey Puma. Frankly they're so bizarre they fit niether with an actual cougar nor with any other large cat, or in fact any animal that I'm aware of. (3'-4' tall, slitted eyes, big paws, can't jump over short fences and has to scramble over, some mutilated sheep left with a single hole in the side rather than any characteristic cat kill pattern...) The inconsistency and dramatic strangeness of the reports leads me to believe the "Surrey Puma" was mostly created from the imaginations or mischief of the locals.

I still see the escaped exotics/overblown wildcats/active imaginations possibility as far more likely than an established population of any exotic cat species. Other exotics besides the Jungle Cat, Ocelot, and Lynx/Bobcat that are popular as "pets" are the Serval and the Caracal. I don't know about Caracals, but Servals, like Jungle Cats, Bobcats, and Asian Leopard Cats, are close enough to domestic cats to create successful hybrids.
 
Keith - I agree, it's not Alaska, but if wanted to I could disappear into Scotland.

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The sightings are by no means exclusive to south east England. Many are in the south-west on moors where people die of exposure fairly regularly, and certainly get lost. Scotland has significant sightings, up to one a month.

http://www.scottishbigcats.co.uk/catshome.htm

As for the surrey puma, I agree a lot of the stories start with ''On the way home from the pub''.

Hybrids - I accept the distinct possibility, but as drjoe pointed out there is no reason for there not to be both.

Have a look again at the statement from the owner of the animal park posted on page two.
 
It appears this HAS been investigated formally by actual experts.

Paper trail

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I live in one of those counties marked on the U.S. map as 7 people per sq km or less. In my area, cougars haven't been hunted for more than fifty years, because half the land is DOE property and the other half is national park. The cats know this, and cougar sightings are quite common despite the low population density. I come across their tracks when I go hiking, we have an acquaintance who had one take up residence in his yard when she was in heat, and my significant other has had them run in front of his car on the way to work twice.

Edit again: Natural History Museum's online exhibit on the subject
 
The skull is a hoax.

An actual expert said the following

A short time after in the afternoon - this was late afternoon - my son, who was about 19 at the time, came charging into the office, shouting, "The pumas are out, the pumas are out." So we put the emergency procedure into action, and all shot out. When we got there all the pumas were there, correct. He showed me where he saw these two pumas, they'd been going up and down in the leaves at the side of the pen. There was not a sign of them. He said that he knew they were pumas, he was brought up with pumas as a lad.

There was another incident, at the back of our restaurant. We had a man and his wife who were staying with us in a caravan, whilst they worked for us. He kept a tame puma which he had brought with him. Now a puma would come into the adjacent field, over a little hedge, in the mornings, when his puma was on heat. They give quite a distinctive cry, very much like a vixen, if you've heard a vixen crying. For a period of time this male puma came into the field behind and called back and three or four people saw it. We didn't take a photograph unfortunately. Now these were positive sightings, they weren't imagining, they weren't black, they were brown pumas.

Another incident was when the police helicopter with a thermal camera detected one at the top of Bickerton. They called me out and I went up there. The area was very suitable, but there were no positive footprints because the railway company, when they had steam trains, had tipped the ashes there for over 100 years along the edge. The police showed me the heat seeking film footage taken from the helicopter. The image was extremely good and it was puma like, the way its head and small neck moved, and it shot off and I feel sure that was a puma.

Also in the ''paper trail'' link there was this

Probably the greatest living expert on the subject is Nigel Brierly, a retired biologist who lives on the Soutern fringes of Exmoor and has spent years collecting evidence. His 80- page paperback, They Stalk by Night, published in 1989, gives the fullest account of the phenomenon to date. The subtitle of his booklet, The Big Cats of Exmoor and the Southwest, reflects his belief that the sheep-killers are not, as some people have claimed, large dogs. Everything about them is feline, from their round heads, small ears, green eyes and long tails to their method of killing which is to stalk and spring without any of the preliminary coursing practised by dogs.
 
http://alumni.swan.ac.uk/news/news_item.asp?news_id=288

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/10_october/21/taro9_cats.shtml

Claw marks can be found on the head and shoulders and the neck is often bereft of meat. In the case of smaller prey some are decapitated whilst lambs may be completely devoured except for their hoofs. Sheep have been found lying on their side, some with ears missing and the rib-cage_ exposed and picked clean. Sometimes innards are eaten but in other cases shoulders are ripped and the scene is usually bereft of blood spill. Rib-cages are usually ‘rasped’ and up to 70 lb of meat has been taken from local goat kills
from http://www.tudor34.freeserve.co.uk/KentBigCatResearch2.htm
 
St. John,

Nobody could disappear in Scotland unless they crawled into a patch of heather and simply stayed there. The area is simply too open and has too many hikers, anglers, birders, etc. It's as if you could tuck 10 people per square mile into the open ranges of Wyoming and then argue that they'd never see each other.

In southwest England it's far more crowded than Scotland, and the reasoning becomes even more strained.

And again - think of the tracks! A large cat can remain unknown in the rocky terrain at the edge of a large city like Denver - and they do - people can and do live within a few hundred yards of a lion and never know it because the animal leaves no tracks in such a place. But in the muddy fields and pastures of southern England it becomes an entirely different matter. You simply couldn't overlook the tens of thousands of 4 1/2 inch wide tracks that such an animal would leave every week. You'd see them everywhere and they'd all lead back to some patch of scrub where the animal lies up every day.

If the animals actually existed, some guy familiar with the species (our own Art, perhaps!) would pop on over and track it down and make a million on the subsequent book deal.

It's a myth just like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness monster. We all enjoy a good story, but...

Keith
 
"Expert" is a relative term. I note they never reference if the guy is an expert on large cats, or just an "expert" in the sense that he's collected the most documentation to support the pro-beast position. Piltdown man had its scientific supporters, too.

As for Keith's suggestion of a tracker, according to a British friend of mine, there was a recent BBC documentary of a man who normally makes his living tracking big cats (mainly tigers) who was called in to investigate. He went up hill and down dale over half of England without ever finding any evidence of big cats in the area. And to an experienced eye, they DO leave evidence. The average person may not recognize that there are cats in their area, but to a practiced eye their presence stands out like a neon sign.

One of the believer testimonials that really stuck out for me was the chances of encountering a cat in a "10 square mile wasteland". Normal sized territory for a big cat is more like fifty square miles; one cat wouldn't be inclined to stay in an area that small, much less several.
 
Beaker, the ''actual expert'' I referred to owns and runs an animal park in Cornwall, he has kept puma's for over twenty years. I included the link to the source of that statement earlier in the thread.

To quote Dr. Rob

So to summarize:
You have a known history of people keeping exotic cats as pets.
You know some people let them go.
You have an ample food supply for a variety of predators.
You have a staged food supply for a variety of predators, from large to small.
You have large stretches of remote areas connecting wooded areas esp. in the North and West of England.
You have a LOT of sightings of puma sized animals, more so than can be accounted by the original animals being 'let loose"
You have a variety of dead exotics showing up on highways.
You have some wierd speciation of cats happening. (the rabbit cat, the cat in the pic with the rabbit)
Conclusions:
You have pumas in England, albiet a small breeding population. There were enough of them around to breed a second and third generation, based on the sightings. If this is not the case, your captive breeders are likely the culprits of most sightings. Are there enough individuals to maitain a breeding population? That remains to be seen.
You likely have smaller exotic cats breeding with feral housecats.

I didn't see the programme you are referring to. Will take a look around. This is not my field of interest, this whole thread is the result of two days research, the possible evidence is abundant, sifting through it is harder.
 
How does that solve it?

There are/have been unquestionably leopard cats and jungle cats abroad in the English countryside. They are quite likely to have interbred with domestic cats and maybe even wildcats. See earlier in the thread.

Melanistic wildcats I had heard of quite a while ago, they are reasonably big. There is also the Kellas cat which I posted a picture of earlier and was mentioned in the links.

However, some reputable people, like the one quoted in my previous post or two, claim to have seen puma's. No reason why both could not be out there.
 
Granted, Keith I'm no expert but there have been sightings of pumas by people who know what pumas look like.

I don't need some reknowned pipe smoking big game hunter from India to tell me there are no Tigers in the wilds of England .:D

As I recall, some reknowned pipe smoking big game hunter name Marduke or something faked a nessie sighting/tracks with a stuffed hippo foot.

There are experts and there are experts, right?

I'm not as convinced about pumas in England as I am with jaguars in Arizona, but there is still some compelling evidence.

Worth a look, or a lively discussion.

This was covered on "Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world" and he reached the conclusion its probably pumas that managed to survive, unlike the cheetahs and other large cats let loose.
 
jaguars in Arizona,

The third largest cat wandering around Arizona?

You guys have any other interesting ''alien'' wild species?

I can add wallabies, garter snakes to the list of aliens in the UK. The wallabies are proven, but their numbers are not healthy, the group took a big hit in a cold winter we had a few years back.
 
Mountain lions also occasionally show up with beaucoup malanin. A very, very dark brown. We've had quite a few such sighted in the Terlingua area.

I've seen two lions in all my years of meddling around in back country. I've seen the tracks of several dozen. Since there's a momma lion living just a half-mile or so from my house, and since I see lion tracks of various sizes around my place, I have to assume that they can learn to live near to people, provided there's some sort of food supply.

One thing for sure, a five- to seven-inch diameter paw print is hard to mistake. :)

Art
 
Well, if you follow the links I provided you'll see some native British cats that will do nicely to explain any puma sightings.

The Scottish wildcat is known to exceed 48 inches in length and the coloring is muted enough to look like a puma in the right light.
This new cat they've dubbed the Kellas cat is apparently a hybrid of wildcat and domestics. It's black, has an elongated head and odd ears that bend at the tips like a Lynx - and it's as big or bigger than the wildcats!

These critters aren't conjecture, they're actual animals that have been captured, shot, weighed, measured, etc. Something like a dozen of these Kellas cats have been killed and shipped to museums in the last ten years and the Scottish wildcat has always been around.

I can certainly understand why someone would mistake such a cat for an even bigger cat. If you saw a four foot long black cat with tasseled ears crossing a field at dawn, you'd probably think you were seeing some sort of leopard and might easily think it was six feet long instead of four feet long.

Hell, just look at this thing: http://www.bigcats.org/swc/kellas1.html
 
I agree with most of that, and up until I started this research yesterday I would have agreed. The Kellas cat is a fascinating one, did you see the exercept I posted about one taking on two dogs a fight? Apparently it has half the cranial capacity relative to body size than a domestic does. Di Francis (mentioned in your links) is adamant that it is a separate ''primitive'' species. Apparently they are vicious gits.

I would have agreed, until the evidence of the zoo owner swayed me over to the puma argument. His son saw pumas (after being raised around them) hanging around the puma cage at his zoo. A friend of his who as a tame she-puma had a male in a neighbouring field ''courting'' her when she was on heat.

I want concrete proof, there is concrete proof for the wildcat/leopard cat/jungle cat hypothesis, the puma is presently witnessed but not proven. Until it is I remain to a degree sceptical but open to the possibility, very open in fact.

Art - you said lions, do you mean African lions? Or is this a case of confusing identification names and you mean puma/cougar/mountain lion?
 
Well, I'm certainly not an expert on cougars! However, I'll go back to the point I keep trying to make to you about the tracks - if such animals were running around in the muddy pastures of England, there would be thousands of clear tracks to examine and without a doubt many hundreds of these would be cast in plaster and passed around to be examined by anyone interested. Animal tracks are quite distinctive and any reasonably knowledgeable person can distinguish one from another. An expert could probably tell you the precise species, weight and perhaps even the sex of the animal!

As an example; a fox track in the snow can be distinguished from a small dog from fifty feet away, just because the tracks are in line rather than staggered - and those animals are related. Nobody who knew a thing about it could be confused between a dog and a cougar!

I would think that since a cougar track is "large for size" and a cougar can weigh 150 pounds, you'd need a 200 or 250 pound dog to even mimic the size of the track, much less the shape, gait, claw marks, etc.
Perhaps one of our members more familiar with cougars and their tracks can comment here?

Anyway, if there were big cats in England, there would be lots of big cat tracks in plaster to show. Hell, even Bigfoot leaves tracks!

Keith
 
*shrug* I reiterate yet again that I have little doubt there have been some exotic pet escapees, up to and including cougars.

I persist in my skepticism that they have established a breeding population in the wild, because the sightings, lack of tracks, lack of remains, and lack of photographic evidence that is NOT a domestic cat or wildcat do not fit with what I know about cougars. These animals do not behave like cougars who are not being and have not been hunted for a long time- which are much less shy and elusive than the cougars in areas where they face real pressure from humans. They do not breed like or establish large territories like cougars. They do not disperse like cougars. (Females in heat screech like women being murdered. Hard to believe no one could track her down, or at least find prints, during her season.) Large cats do not exist like ghosts upon the land; why would the Ministry of Agriculture spend that much time and money on a coverup? Because Keith is right- they WOULD be leaving tracks all over the place on that kind of terrain, and cougar tracks don't look much like dog or large wildcat tracks unless you don't have a basis for comparison.

I retain my opinion because the evidence isn't enough to overcome the evidence that shows itself in its absence- that which we know about how big cats behave.
 
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What do you think of those? Real?

The British Big Cat Society today released details of big cat sightings reported through it during 2001. The staggering figure of 438 (sightings or incidents) clearly indicates that there are 'many' Big Cats currently roaming Britain.
Altogether there were in fact over 500 sightings reported to the society - but 105 of those were reports from previous years. (543 in total)
Scotland was again the 'hot spot'- with 85 reports, then Wales with 72, Leicestershire 63, Gloucestershire 58, Norfolk 45, Cambridgeshire 23, Suffolk 15, Devon 10, Yorkshire 8 and Cornwall 7.
The society had reports in 31 counties these included an attack on a horse in Devon and a rather unique sighting from 6 people at the same time - which reported a PUMA 'sunbathing' for several hours in Wiltshire.
 
St Johns, I've only referred to the U.S. mountain lion. Like I said before, a lot of us in Texas simply call them "lions". :)

Find yourself an area with a sandy loam soil. It holds tracks pretty well. Hang some rags soaked in bacon grease. Scatter some catnip around.

Check daily for tracks. If you see cat tracks you can barely cover with your open hand, you'll have a pretty good idea as to who came by! A typical female's pawprint is as big as the width of your fist.

Territory? Open-country lions are known to range a five- to ten-mile circle in a night's hunt. The Texas Parks & Wildlife biologists estimate a breeding pair's common territory to be as much as 10 to 20 miles in diameter. (There was a big "Oops!" over this after a trapping program in the Chisos Mountains of Big Bend National Park. They expected to find maybe two or three pairs. Nope. 22 lions in all. But, lots of deer and javelina in that area.)

As a generality, a mountain lion will kill a deer per week, if available.

A friend of mine flies for wildlife researchers. One radio-collared lion's territory wasn't much from east to west, but ranged some 200 miles, north to south. That cat, a mature male, ranged from the Glass Mountains north of Marathon, Texas, to way down in the Sierra Del Carmen in Mexico.

To digress: My firend's record "chase" was of a Peregrine falcon. It all started in Saskatchewan; southward to the coast of south Texas; and thence to South America. East across Brazil, and then off across the Atlantic, where a Cessna 172 is rather limited. :) The bird was then picked up on radio in Africa. Go figure.

:), Art
 
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