British Big Cats - quick update

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Iain

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Remember our previous heated thread?

One or two new stories around at the moment:

Humberside Police have confirmed they believe big cats are living wild in their area.

The force's wildlife officer Sue Rhodes tells the BBC's Inside Out programme that she believes two big cats, probably black leopards or puma are on the loose.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/3146742.stm

It is understood police had mounted a secret stakeout in the Benvarden Road area over a number of days where they believed the animal would appear.

They were delighted when night vision equipment subsequently located the cat.

However, just before the animal moved into a clearing designated as the focal point for the operation, a car with three people on board - who had been trying to take pictures of the cat - drove into the field.

When they got out the animal was frightened.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3081132.stm

A vet is convinced that horrific wounds inflicted on a pony in Devon were caused by a big cat.

Three-year-old palomino Mischief was left scarred for life after an attack in a field in the South Brent area a week ago...

...Several years ago the area was sealed off and police marksmen were called in to track down what was believed to be a lion which was roaming the area, but no animal was found.

Local vet Steve Grills, who treated Mischief's injuries, said he was convinced the injuries "were the work of a puma or other large cat".

"Basically the reason for this is the number of scratch marks on the animal's back legs reaching quite high.

"It's not something you'd expect a smaller animal to have done.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3186521.stm

A man out for a stroll near his home has filmed what experts say is the most conclusive evidence that big cats exist in the wild in Cornwall. (read more at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3144865.stm)

This one is older
Police marksmen who saw the animal are also convinced it was a big cat, and farm worker Mike Sheppard insists he knows what he saw when he came across the animal standing over the dog's corpse.
"It was a big cat. It hissed at me and stood its ground," he said.
The American trackers back local people unequivocally.
"We can state without reservation that there is at least one mountain lion and one black panther, probably a melanistic leopard in the Rhydcmerau/Brechfa region," said Mr Brown, who visited Carmarthen-shire late last year.
The trackers were called in after numerous sightings and the deaths of sheep and a Shiatzu dog.
They found cat tracks in several locations as well as areas where cats had lain in hiding preparing for an attack.
"It is our belief that the forest in the area provides the cover and escape routes they need to maintain their relative secrecy, and that the sheep in the area provide an unlimited source of food," said Mr Brown.
"There have been several human/ cat interactions that would lead us to believe that the cats are slowly loosing their fear of humans and it is likely that there will be a deadly encounter between humans and the cats in the near future."
Mr Brown has been involved in hundreds of tracking cases, including locating lost hunters and hikers, tracking and pursuit of fugitives, and tracking escaped animals.
He is the author of 16 books on tracking and wilderness themes.
His Survival School in New Jersey has trained more than 25,000 people in the arts of tracking.
Mr Brown's report has been sent to the National Assembly. spokeswoman.
The Western Mail: 31st January, 2003.
http://www.britishbigcats.org/welshnews2.htm
 
That's funny Keith.

I'm all for big cats. However, these are FERAL cats, an imported species not native to the country. I hate to say it, but the logical thing to do would be to hunt them down and eradicate them from a wildlife management/habitat preservation standpoint.

As a hunter/outdoorsman I say leave them be, let them breed up to a nice stable population and then issue a few hunting licenses.
 
I read a squib in something like Reader's Digest, years back, that more people get lost in the swampland areas of New Jersey than in any other state. The Great Dismal Swamp, there, is apparently as jungly as a Hollywood movie set. Add in cloudy weather and few terrain features...Oops!

I read an article on tracking by Brown, some years ago. He seems to know what he's talking about. He's certainly knowledgeable about the behaviors of lost people.

But you're not really a tracker until you can down a trophy animal, and backtrack him to where he was born. :D

Art
 
I don't know Mr. Brown.

I do know folks who've been to his tracking seminars. They say Brown can do what his books state.

One went on a safari a few years ago. Not to hunt...just to track with one of the best trackers in Africa.

Apparently the African tracker was amazed to find a white man who could track well.
 
Thanx, semf. I'm dredging from a Reader's Digest article I read 40 or 50 years ago, as to the name/location. There was an effort to build a railway across the swamp. Unfortunately, it sank into the mud. After the third effort, they gave up.

The squib about lost hikers/hunters in New Jersey is from a later tidbit of news...

Aside from physical clues in tracking, some folks acquire a knack for figuring out probable behavior or direction that the trackee will follow--which helps when the spoor fades out on some terrain.

Art
 
I seem to remember NC has a fair hunk of the Great Dismal Swamp located within its borders also.
Where else would those extinct parakeets being hiding out if not there;)
S-

As for the big cats in GB.

They are not native and should be captured, or whatever, and removed.
S-
 
. . . the sheep in the area provide an unlimited source of food . . .
You know, if we wanted to, we could have some fun with this quote about conditions in the British Isles . . .

Nah . . . too easy. ;)
 
I wasn't referring to Brown's general outdoor skills, but rather his knowledge of cougars and other big cats. What would a guy from New Jersey know about it?
I'm sure that (by British standards) I'd qualify as an outdoors "expert" of some kind... but I don't know anything about cats. I couldn't look at a track and tell the difference between a leopard and a cougar - or even a large dog of some kind! I would guess that New Jerseyites have about the same "big cat" skills as Alaskans - none!

I'm equally sure that several people who post on this board could do all of that and much more. I'm sure that starting from a fresh kill, they could either track that animal to it's day-bed, or looking at the general topography and terrain (and the direction the animal took after the kill), find it in short order.

And that's what puzzles me about this whole thing! We're dealing with a fairly easy landscape and terrain. It's a damp climate cut with farm tracks and muddy cattle paths where a large predator would leave clear tracks. And the places where such an animal could lie up during the day are fairly limited - brushy areas on hillsides, ravines, etc. This is rural England, not the rocky and uninhabited moonscape of northern Arizona. And yet, nobody can seem to track these animals down!

I'm sure that most of these sightings are in fact, the Scottish Wild Cat, a critter that was near extinction and is now coming back. But those cats are not big enough to kill sheep - unless maybe they came across an injured sheep or something.
I suspect that these are dog killings. Or in other cases, animals that simply died and were fed on by foxes and weasels, etc. If these were indeed cougar/leopard killings somebody would have tracked an animal down - and there ARE people in England (and surely in Scotland) that could do that quite easily. These are rural areas where there are still ghilllies and gameskeepers (and just ordinary people), who have the necessary skills.

Yet, we see not a single cougar skin nailed to anyone's barn door, and that tells me there aren't any such critters.

Oh, and one other point to sort of put this in perspective. Think of these "Alien Cattle Mutilations" across the west - can't we all agree that these are NOT supernatural in nature? Aren't these bovines killed by cougars, coyotes, dogs and bears? Yet, you will find "experts" - veterinarians, police officials and forensic specialists - who conclude otherwise; that the injuries were caused by forces beyond their reckoning...
I guess they don't discuss Occam's Razor in universities any more...

Keith
 
They did track one down in Northern Ireland according to the second story but it was scared off by would-be photographers. I do agree with a lot of what you say though, but there are one or two sightings and testimonies that don't quite fit that. There could have been a cougar skin nailed to someones door in the early 80's as there was one captured in Derbyshire (IIRC).

And, don't be disparaging about the general outdoors skills of the British population ( ;) ) Check out Ranulph Fiennes and Ray Mears as to why.

It's an interesting topic and I am sure one day there will be answers.
 
They did track one down in Northern Ireland according to the second story but it was scared off by would-be photographers.

But WHAT did they track down? Was it a 20 or 30 pound tabby (maybe a Wild Cat or domestic with a dash of Wild Cat genes) or a cougar/leopard? It's very, very easy to misjudge the size of an animal in the field. Every hunter here (I'm sure) has a story about someone they knew (not themselves, of course!) who whacked a big old doe deer, only to find it was in fact, a 50 pound fawn. It happens all the time, even to fairly experienced deer hunters.
If it happens to people who have seen thousands of deer in the wild, it can surely happen to someone who has never seen a big cat. A 30 pound tabby with cougar or black leopard features could easily be mistaken for a larger cat.

And, don't be disparaging about the general outdoors skills of the British population

I wasn't at all! I clearly stated that there must be many people with the requisite skills to track down and whack a big cat! I'm sure all those farmers either have a shotgun license (or have an unlicensed shotgun) and regularly whack foxes, weasels and even feral dogs who get too close to the henhouse. And those same guys grew up hunting hares, foxes and pheasants, etc. Farmers are farmers the world over, and when something is eating your stock you track it down and kill it. And not only that, but there are many professional ghillies and gameskeepers who do it for a living, even today. Any of those guys could and would find a big predator and take care of the situation.
And it is that fact that makes me doubt the whole story! If there were big cats, there would be big dead cats to show! Where are the cougar skins nailed to the barn door?

Keith
 
I was being lighthearted Keith, there was a wink in brackets there.

With reference to the Northern Ireland cats (if indeed there are any) it is worth bearing in mind that it is believed they are recent escapees or releasees (I think I invented that word for this purpose). The USPCA (Ulster Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) are saying that the animal is an 'amateur' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3081132.stm).

For precedent there is the case of Felicity the puma mentioned above who was found to be incredibly tame when captured but definitely made kills after she was released/escaped.

It is also worth bearing in mind that Northern Ireland does not have the same 'Dangerous Animal' legislation that the rest of the UK does (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3175287.stm)

It is an interesting one, perhaps Agricola could give us some LEO perspective? I'll post interesting stuff as it comes up. Was going to post a story I heard on the BBC radio the other day about some hairs that under microscopic example were placed as melanistic leopard (black panther). The hairs were reportedly taken from an abandoned caravan where a sighting was reported and believed to have been used for shelter by the animal. Can't find a link at the moment to the story.
 
I follow your point, Keith, but just because a guy lives in New Jersey doesn't mean he doesn't spend a lot of time out in various sorts of "critter country".

Perhaps, but he couldn't find any cougar or leopard, could he?

I don't know if you've ever been to Great Britain, but picture some of the hilly parts of eastern Iowa, with a bit more rain. The farm sections are smaller and not as "square", I mean holdings are irregular in shape, etc, but a place like Iowa is a pretty close approximation of much of southern and central Great Britain, where a lot of these cat sightings are.
And like Iowa, there is quite a bit of land still in the rough - steep ground that can't be plowed and fence lines between property's, and along power lines and such with small wood lots here and there.
So, you can picture how a big cat would get around without being seen much, and could find places to seek cover during the day. It could happen.

What I can't imagine is that it could happen for long! How long does a feral dog or coyote live in a farm community when it gets a taste for chcken or sheep? A cat may be stealthier, but this has been going on for years and somebody would have whacked one by bow.

Picture yourself plunked down in such a place, at the sight of a fresh kill. The ground is muddy and it's cut with dirt farm and cattle paths in every direction. Don't you think you could track it or just work out which brushy area or little woodlot it was laying in for the day? And if you knew that you could flush it out and kill it, or tree it with dogs and dart it. But that never happens...

Keith
 
I would love to know there are big cats running around in places like Great Britain! We all want to believe in things that are oh... mysterious, you know? Locally, we have something called "Urluck" which is the local native version of Bigfoot. And every so often someone spots one, or a track, or finds some unidentifiable fur clinging to their newly emptied fish smoker. And often these are quite respectable people and you want to believe them - that there is some remnant population of Neanderthal or Gigantopithecus running around out in the vast Alaskan forest.

I want to believe it, but I know it just can't be. If they were out there, some Alaskan hillbilly (like myself) would have a hide nailed to his barn door!

Keith
 
Still its one of my fave topics on the hunting forum.

So a suggestion:

Hire a few wildlife 'experts' (namely Keith and I) to come and find your pumas. We'll do the responsible thing and dart them and provide them with stylish ear tags so that the authorities can learn to track these elusive ghosts.

I can probably get someone over at RDF Media to produce a show about it, sort of a "red-neck reality" series.

Now if I can find my safari jacket and meerchaum pipe...
 
Working from a fresh kill, one of those English fox hounds oughta be able to trail a cat, quite easily. You wouldn't want him tangling with it, of course. My name for free-ranging dogs in my country is "Lion Bait". A lion will commonly hunt within a five-mile circle on any given night; 25 miles of total travel in a night has been noted via radio-collar tracking. A lion on the move can cover some serious ground. Texas Parks & Wildlife turned loose a collared lion one day, and maybe two days later the lion was killed in a sheep pen, 80 or 90 miles away.

Talking of Sasquatches and Yetis and Urluchs, I'd swear there's some sort of maybeso-quasi-human critter in our back-country. I've never seen one, but I keep sorta getting impressions of something, just at the edge of my peripheral vision. By the time I turn my head, it's gone.

Of course, being a desert type, it's not as big as "wet-country" denizens. About half a man's size? Sorta skinny, I think; brownish in color. And definitely quick.

Never had "that funny feeling" at night, though. Dunno why. Maybe they're only out and about in daytime.

Might spook some people...

Art
 
That is the interesting thing about this crypto-zoology business, orang-utan literally means 'man of the forest' I believe and so early reports of them to white men were treated as local legend until they actually saw one. And some of the stories that came back from early visitors to Australia - strange mammalian swimming creatures with bills that appear to lay eggs!

It would be really good to get someone with very specific cat-tracking experience to have a look at these reports. Particularly the recent (last two months) reports from Northern Ireland.

Do any of you have any experience with people keeping mountain lions as pets? Apparently they get very tame (although Roy appears to have made that mistake with tigers), yet if they are/have been released then they do appear to do rather well at hiding away and killing at least well enough to survive. Having said that, these latest ones have attracted over twenty reports in the last two months so perhaps they aren't too skilled.

Parts of Scotland are supposed to be a lot like Idaho, wouldn't know myself but apparently lots of early Idaho settlers were Scottish in origin, you know settling in familiar land.
 
The YO Ranch at Kerrville, Texas, once had three or four mountain lions and a couple of jaguars in various cages. (Not sure why; people just "do that".) From chit-chat, it seems that female mountain lions will actually behave as pets, well into later years. The males can "snap" from pet to agressor, apparently around age three-ish.

Puma cubs are cute little critters, but a lot of the releasing is due to the cost of feeding and cleanup after they're grown. They eat a good bit, compared to the typical family dog, and are smellier than house cats. Or, fear after some natural display of agression. This latter might involve eating the long-time friend, the family dog, for instance.

Since even house cats are natural hunters, I'm not at all surprised that a lion could survive yet appear tame around people.

Comparative topography: The Rocky Mountains are younger than those of Scotland (or the Appalachians of the eastern US). In the higher elevations they are much steeper and rougher, with timberline around 11,000 feet and year-round snow above that. (Scotland from photos, of course. :) ) The similarities are more in what might be called the foothill country.

Art
 
I had a wolf for many years. She was raised as a house "dog" yet when I took her out into the woods she'd instantly begin slinking on the hunt, in wolf fashion. In grassy places where there were field mice she'd begin that same odd hop that all wild canines practice; bouncing up and down to catch field mice. It must have been totally instinctual - it's not something I've ever seen a domestic dog do.

So, I have no doubt that a big cat of some kind could provide for itself if returned to the wild - especially around a farming community where there are a lot more rabbits, pheasants, rodents, etc, than you'd find in a truly wild place.

I just think it would be too easy to find to survive for long.

Keith
 
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