equivalent performance???

[SSN Vet]

I've read some posts which state (as if it's common knowledge) that .30-30 and .357 yield equivalent performance in lever action rifles.

I shoot and reload for a .357 revolver and a .30-30 rifle and feel there's no comparison....the rifle having a lot more powder and giving a much greater recoil and report.

But that's not an apples to apples comparison...

Soooooo...I pulled some reload data from the Hodgdon sight, which now lists Hodgdon, Winchester and IMR powders (a pretty broad selection).

I found that they have data specifically for .357 rifle loads (utilizing slower powders to take advantage of the longer barel).

I pulled the fastest numbers for 150 gr bullets, which seem pretty typical for both calibres.

in .30-30
you can push a 150gr bullet with 30.5 gr of H4895 and get 2,390 fps

or....

in .357 (pulled off the RIFLE load page)
you can push a 150 gr bullet with 16.5 gr of H4227 and get 1,775 fps

2,300 fps vs. 1,775 fps .... sounds like 30% more velocity and energy.....

is it just me, or does this NOT sound like "equivalent performance"?

If there's some basis for backing up that claim, please educate me.

 

[RecoilRob]

I'm with you....no WAY they are 'equivalent'. The rifle round trumps the pistol round every time.

If people think they are comparable I'd have to wonder what they are thinking?

 

[griz]

My guess would be they are a little closer than that when you consider that most 30-30 carbines have a pretty short barrel. But even then, the edge will go to the "real" rifle round. When you consider the better drop figures for the 30 caliber bullet, there is not mich of a contest.

That said, I just really like my little Marlin lever action in 357.

 

[SSN Vet]

I think (but don't know) that the load data comes from rounds fired in readilly available rifles.....

so for the .30-30 I'd guess they are chronographing rounds fired from either a Marlin 336 or a Winchester 94 with a 20" barrel.

For the .357 I'd guess they're testing rounds in an 1894 with an 18" barrel.

So again, my guess is that the load table numbers already reflect the short barrels.

Don't get me wrong......I'm not bashing the .357 lever guns.

I would LOVE to have one.

I would HATE to get shot with one.

I'm just wondering if there's any real basis to substantiate the claim that it's "equivalent" to the .30-30.

 

[Ian]

Are you sure they didn't mean .357 Mag and .30 Carbine?

 

[rockstar.esq]

There was an article in a gunmag about this a few years ago and ALL THE ASSUMPTIONS WERE BASED ON TAYLOR KNOCKDOWN FACTORS!

TKO value = [ Weight (gr) x Terminal Velocity (fps) x calibre (in) ] ÷ 7000

So since the velocity isn't squared (as it is in kinetic energy calculations) the effect of bore diameter which heretofore had no bearing on performance criteria can made significant differences when comparing rifles to handguns.

Taking your example of the 30-30 at 2390fps and a 150 grain bullet the TKO comes to (150*2390*.308)/ 7000 = 15.774

The .357 at 1775 fps and a 150 graom bullet the TKO comes to
(150*1775*.357) / 7000 = 13.5788

Using the TKO system, lots of things start to seem more related than perhaps they are. Needless to say, there are lots of folks who've shot a deer with a .357 Mag rifle and it dropped dead just like would when shot by a 30-30. The TKO is just another tool that used out of context, makes things seem related that aren't.

 

[SSN Vet]

thanks rockstar.....

never heard of TKO factors befor.....I can see how that comparison makes them appear a lot closer.

I'm sure I'd drop like a rock if I were hit by either one....and as I said earlier, I'd love to have a handy little .357 lever gun.

I think I'll stick with the .30-30 for 100 yd to 250 yd work though.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Over a chronograph you'll never see anything close to 2390fps with a 20" 30-30. You'll be lucky to bust 2200 FPS. From my experiance in several rifles I've found published 30-30 velocities to be VERY optimistic. 170 grn bullets seldom break 2000fps

You won't see 2390fps in a 20" or even a 24" barrel even with the NEW hornady ammo.

Now if you compare 16 to 18 inch carbines and correct 30-30 to actual velocities you'll find that the 357 and 30-30 are very much in the same ballpark.


That's why I scoff at 30-30 vs 7.62x39 comparisons. I have a CZ527 with a 18.5" barrel that launches cheap wolf 154grn SP ammo as fast as my winchester launches the new fangled high doller leverrevoulution. And with handloads I can equal my wichester M94 with 170grn bullets.


I'm not bashing the good ol 30-30 but a serious velocity reality check is in order.