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EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Snejdarek, Dec 16, 2016.

?

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  1. Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  2. Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    I'm more surprised Estonia & Finland are on board; I thought Finland was the one that deputized all citizens as militiamen exempted from the rules.

    "Look, we don't actually care whether you guys keep your guns or not, so long as you are loyal to the EU as opposed to your native country" --the entire point of a local militia is to not be taking orders from some far off governing bureau...Just like in America after the Revolution, within a generation the local militia will be disbanded & rolled into a formal federal military force, and their domestic function replaced by high-powered federal law enforcement (i.e. gendararmie or constabulary). This proposal is dangerous bait for short sighted gun owners & politicians (or anyone who would have these militia directed against them, for that matter). At best, this scheme ends up with one nation's militia used to put down another state's rebellion (that's how it worked in the US for a time, anyway). Something that, absent the EU legitimizing it, would be rightly seen as armed foreign aggression.

    TCB
     
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  2. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    I think I got mixed up, you posted awhile back that Czech Republic was going to do something like that and around the same time I saw a video of Polish militias training, and I conflated the two.

    BTW, just want to thank you for keeping us posted on gun-related news from Europe. :)
     
  3. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    No, that is one of the plans in the Czech Republic.
     
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  4. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    EP voted for the EU Gun Ban.
     
  5. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    Have you expected something different? 491 to 178 is pretty clear.

    (good, that Keller and Stetina corrected their vote ;) )
     
  6. Proinsias

    Proinsias Member

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    So their left party is strongly supporting gun rights, is that correct? Interesting.
     
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  7. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Forget "lefty" Social Democrats.

    How about the Czech Communist Party jumping on the wagon and proclaiming support for the Constitutional Amendment? http://www.halonoviny.cz/articles/view/45327532

    UPDATE:
    The proposal went through first reading in the Chamber of Deputies and was passed on to Committees to deliberate on it. It will be back to plenary within two months with the plan being of having it decided before the Autumn election (hopefully before summer break in the Chamber).

    Meanwhile the Minister of Interior announced that the suit against the EU is finished and they are only waiting for the Directive to be officially published in order to lodge it.
     
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  8. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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    Ive attended the first reading in parlament - first collecting signitures and asking MPs for support in the morning. and then listening all the speeches from balcony for audience.
    Have to admit it was funn at times:-D
    LEX did great job.
     
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  9. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    Amateurs; that is not how you do tyranny...some Californian needs to go & show them how it's done ;)

    Glad to hear this proposal has legs to go the distance :cool:. We need more nations with codified civilian gun rights, there are precious few at this time.

    TCB
     
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  10. angrybird

    angrybird Member

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    Well, I just like to answer that both Switzerland and the Czech Republic are an example for the European Union who loves to lecture everyone about freedom and human rights...
     
  11. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Some of the points raised during discussion at plenary (Czech only: https://www.psp.cz/eknih/2013ps/stenprot/056schuz/s056204.htm )

    [Intro into Czech Party politics (individual MPs are not bound by party position):
    GOVERNMENT:
    ČSSD (Social democratic party) - center left - 50 seats - authored & supports the proposal
    ANO - center - 47 seats - opposes the proposal
    KDU-ČSL - center right - 14 seats - opposes the proposal

    OPPOSITION:
    KSČM (Communist party) - extreme left - 33 seats - supports proposal
    TOP 09 - liberal right - 25 seats - opposes proposal
    ODS - conservative right - 16 seats - supports proposal & pledged not to implement EU Gun Ban even if it meant facing sanctions (a position that ČSSD has now quietly started to flirt with too)
    Dawn - populist - 7 seats - supports proposal
    + 8 independents]

    Roman Váňa (ČSSD) - While EU Gun Ban is based in internal market policy, the law we are proposing is dealing with national and internal security. This what will make a difference in case the European Court of Justice ever gets to decide on the law. ..... This will be a first step that will ultimately lead to establishment of civilian security reserves [the word MILITIA has been discredited in the past by the Communist Militia, which was major force in the 1948 coup and the only legal militia during communim, so that's why everyone is trying to avoid using it]. As regards training of the reserves, we need to gain inspiration from Finland, Switzerland and the Baltics. .... In case that such a need arises, we all should have not only the duty, but also the right to defend the state that we all make up.

    Marek Benda (ODS) - Without trying to question the need to adopt the proposal, I believe it should be discussed whether it is proper to have it passed as part of the Constitutional Act on Security of the Czech Republic. Perhaps it would be more fitting as part of Constitution or the Bill of Rights itself. I support that this would be passed as ammendment to the Constitution instead, which is something I will propose in the Constitutional Committee.

    Milan Chovanec (ČSSD, Minister of Interior, main author of the proposal) - ... It should be mentioned that we will have 15 months to implement the Directive. It will be then left to the Government and the Parliament to decide, what to do. I would support being very restrained approach as regards the implementation at least until the European Court of Justice decides on the suit we will bring against the Directive (which will take much longer than the 15 months).

    (more to follow when I find time)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  12. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Jana Černochová (ODS, she was behind ODS' pledge not to implement the Directive, CCs Glock 26) - Let's not pretend that this ammendment will stop the absurd gun confiscating Directive, but it is the first step to make sure that the Directive does not impact our legal gun owners. ... As much as the respective officials tried, they could not succeed. It is politicians' job to negotiate in Brussels, and the Prime Minister (ČSSD) and the Minister of Interior (ČSSD) failed. ... Is the proposal similar to the USA's 2A? No, it isn't. I believe it is impossible to compare varying historical consequences and nuances that led particular states to include the right to be armed in their Constitutions. From a Czech viewpoint, 2A may be considered a certain relict of its time, however it remains an important signal of the state with a strong symbolic meaning for the American society and its mentality. Certain measure that assure safe handling of firearms are rational and it would not be appropriate to have them recklessly watered down. ... Further, I propose shortening of the time frame for debate in respective Committees to 54 days so that we can deliberate on the proposal in both second and third [FINAL VOTE] reading in June [general elections follow, if not voted through before June, it would fall under the table].

    Miroslav Kalousek (Chief of TOP09) - First of all, to make one thing clear - TOP09 does not agree with the Directive and all our MEPs voted against it or abstained. We support the suit to the CJEU. .... On the other hand I don't agree with Ms. Černochová's label of gun confiscation Directive. I own three short guns [pistols/revolvers] and this Directive does not deprive me of them. If I want to buy another ten, I can do so. ... Hunters who own ten rifles can buy another ten rufles and the Directive does not stand in the way of that. ... What the Directive does is that it forbids since 2019 the possession with self loading rifles that have 30 and more rounds [in reality - 10+]. You can have self loading rifles, you just can't go to the Westminster bridge and shower it down with 30 bullets. You can only shower it down with ten. Also, you can't have short gun with magazine with 20 and more rounds. You can shoot let's say fifteen rounds. Calling these restrictions gun confiscation Directive is hysterical. We don't agree with the Directive, we believe that the given issue should be solved on national level and we believe that our current firearms legislation is the best in the EU. ... In my opinion, the Czech Army should have never sold self loading rifles with magazines with 30 and more rounds to the public [milsurp vz.58 adjusted to semi-auto only is the most common self loading rifle in the country, with 40+ thousand in civilian hands], and that is the problem. ... TOP09 shall never support constitutional right to be armed, as it is sufficient to have this legislated on the level of general law, which we should defend. Raising it to the level of constitutional law is pre-election populism.

    [In one old interview Kalousek spoke about his three guns. I think those were two pistols and a revolver, one pistol being NY cop issue gun (probably pre-Glock - any idea?); Kalousek said in the interview that although he has CC license, he does not carry because he doesn't train with the guns thus would consider it more dangerous to be armed than not being armed.]

    (Let me know if there is any interest in this blabber so that I know whether to continue)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
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  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Of course we're interested. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, and we are always interested in the defense of fundamental rights.
     
  14. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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    I always find the updates interesting!
     
  15. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Proposal was debated in the National Security Committee of the Chamber of Deputies of Czech Parliament.
    Yay - 10
    Nay - 1

    Constitutional Committee next.
     
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  16. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Minister of Interior Milan Chovanec (ČSSD), author of the Constitutional Amendment proposal, and Member of Parliament Jana Černochová (ODS), author of ODS' pledge not to implement the Directive even if it meant facing EU sanctions, were both pretty hard trying to show who is more pro-gun and got into several bitter arguments both in Parliament as well as online.

    They settled their differences with firearms, as you can see in the video:



    Jana Černochová won.

    Two years ago I could not imagine that Gun Rights will become one of the main election issues...
     
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  17. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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    haha, awesome. Can't wait to open the video at home :)
     
  18. Armybrat

    Armybrat Member

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    It is great to see a European country's citizens fighting for their right to self defense.
    It is past the time for feudal oppression of the ordinary citizens.
    Good luck to our Czech friends!
     
  19. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    During Sunday's televised political debate, the MInister of Interior Milan Chovanec (ČSSD) voiced his support not to implement the Amendment Directive until the Court of Justice of the European Union decides suit that will be filed by the Czech Republic.

    Beautiful to see them guys trying to win our love before the autumn election.
     
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  20. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    UPDATE

    European Council should vote on the Amendment probably in the upcoming week (i.e. end of April). Even though expected to be a mere formality, this will close the legislative process and it will clear the way for publishing of the Amendment Directive in the Official Journal. The countries will then have 15 months to implement the Directive into its national laws.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#European_Parliament_Vote

    Meanwhile, the resistance is rising in Switzerland with referendum seeming likely. That despite this very beautiful Swiss-tailored exemption in the Directive:

    As regards firearms classified in point 6 of category A, Member States
    applying a military system based on general conscription and having in place
    over the last 50 years a system of transfer of military firearms to persons
    leaving the army after fulfilling their military duties may grant to those
    persons, in their capacity as a target shooter, an authorisation to keep one
    firearm used during the mandatory military period. The relevant public
    authorityshall transform those firearms into semi-automatic firearms and
    shall periodically check that the persons using such firearms do not
    represent a risk to public security.

    FULL TEXT HERE: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...ce=A8-0251/2016&secondRef=107-107&language=EN
     
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  21. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    UPDATE

    The amendment was voted through in the EU Council.

    Only the Czech Republic, Poland and Luxembourg voted against.

    [​IMG]

    This is surprising as Poland failed to vote against back in April when the text was still being negotiated - they didn't put their weight in when it could still impact the final wording, only now when the outcome was quite clear.

    Meanwhile Austria, which abstained back in April, now supported the proposal. It's quite shameful how gun owners in every other country failed to sway their government (in Poland it was more of an issue of general disagreement with the EU than gun rights issue).

    So, 10 minutes after the press release came out, I ordered semi-automatic ZB.26. I wanted also ZB.30-37 but they are sold out. One of the main points of the directive is banning semi-auto firearms that were made by modification of select-fire firearms. During the phonecall, the "manufacturer" told me that under Czech law, his guns are not modified, but newly manufactured firearms, so he doesn't expect to be covered by the restriction (meanwhile CZ seller told me the opposite about vz.58). Well, leave it to the Czechs to find a loophole.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    A legal note:

    Slovakia and Hungary are currently waiting for their suits against he Migrant Quota to be processed by the European Court of Justice. One of their points of contest is that the majority voting at the European Council (which was never applied before migrant quota) is only possible on issues that are decided by resort Ministers (i.e. if it was a lesser issue up to the vote of Ministers of Interior of the Member States), while heads of governments decisions should legally be only unanimous.

    While the Czech suit against the Directive will be decided in 2019 in the earliest, if the ECJ agrees with Slovakia and Hungary on the abovemention issue, it may apply on the Firearms Directive (problem being that there are various law making procedures in the EU and the migrant quota may have been different from standard Directive - I need to read up on that).
     
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  23. Proinsias

    Proinsias Member

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    One of the US communist/socialist parties (there's like 12, forget which one) had Second Amendment rights as part of their 2016 platform.
    Hell holes both due to guns (#6 and #7 safest countries in the world). Why can't they be more like the UK (#47)?
     
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  24. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    UPDATE

    Seeing that ČSSD is trailing quite far behind ANO in popularity polls, and with autumn election nearing, the Prime Minister has in the past week started confronting ANO Chairman and Minister of Finance as regards origin of his wealth (he is 2nd most wealthy person in the country now). As the Minister of Finance was seemingly getting support from the President (who would need to accept Prime Minister's proposal to oust the Finance Minister), the Prime Minister has now offered his own resignation, i.e. resignation of the entire government.

    This may either mean that the Constitutional Amendment Proposal will take a back seat on the background of the political bickering, or that it will become major political issue soon as all parties will try to win support not only of gun people, but anti-EU crowd in general.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/world/europe/czech-republic-sobotka-resignation.html?_r=0

    Meanwhile, in a recent opinion poll, EU popularity in the Czech Republic is lowest in the entire EU, even far below the level of popularity EU "enjoys" in the UK.
     
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  25. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    In a logic defying move, Slovakian Minister of Interior now announced that Slovakia is now considering to join the planned Czech suit against the Directive.

    Yes, that Slovakia, which just two weeks ago voted in support of the Directive.
     

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