Evauluating Pistol Accuracy

[Steve in NC]

Gentleman,
When I don't know something I ask questions. I've always been a rifleman first and formost. I've shot competitive long range benchrest for the better part of 20 yrs. I know how to evaluate a rifle and loads and what to change first to make the most difference in accuracy with a rifle.
I've only recently started to get into pistols and reloading for them. I've now loaded for 38/357, 9mm, and 40SW. My 38/357 and 9mm loads are very sufficent for the guns they were shot in at the distanse I was shooting. Not seeting the world on fire but for now I'm statisfied with the results.
But my 40 which is a SW M&P 40c is in my opinion shooting poorly. Meaning at 10 yrs I'm getting 4-6" groups out of a full mag when shooting offhand slowfire and trying to sqeeze them off as good as I can.
Now, I have no grand ellusions of making these pistols shoot anything like my BR rifles. I understand the end result is for self defense. But I personally do not think 4-6" group at 10 yds is worth bragging about in any way shape or form. If that was shot at 2am in the middle of a breakin at my house and it located center mass..not a problem. But for slowfire no stress shooting at a peice of paper.. i'm not happy with it. Not when I can shoot half that size with my 9mm and 357 revolver without really trying.

With that said I would like to ask a few questions and hear what ya'll have to say in return:

1) What is the "industry standard" for evaluating pistol loads and at what distance? Meaning for an average deer rifle most say that if you shoot 1" @ 100yds your doing pretty well. And that is a pretty decent rule of thumb for a factory rifle. Is there an equivilent group size and distance for pistols also?

2) In what order do you start evaluating a pistol load for acceptable SD/HD accuracy? Meaning you select a load and it give you 4-6" groups at 10yds. So you want to make it shoot better (assuming no feeding issues, power rating irrelavent, etc etc) and just looking for better accuracy.... what would you change or tweek first?

Change powder ?
change powder loading by say .2 gr up or down (assuming you ask and got several reccommendations to use powder X for your caliber/bullet combo)?
change crimping?
crimp as a seperate step after seating?
check dies and setup for concentricty?
change bullet brand or type?
etc etc

FYI: My current 40 S&W load is:
Primer: Rem 5 1/2
Case: various brands but sorted and trimmed
Powder: WSF (6.0 to 7.0gr)
Bullet: Ranier Bal 155gr FN (CP)
OAL: 1.125

have loaded these both with the Lee Auto-Disk measurer and also by hand to make sure the load was exactly X gr of wgt and didn't see a difference on paper.

thanks in advance for your answers and help,
Steve

 

[Lost Sheep]

Steve, thanks for asking our advice

Well, first of all, it may have nothing to do with the load. It may be the pistol. How does it do with factory ammo?

When the Colt 1911 was introduced and for decades thereafter it was renowned for its inaccuracy. The purpose of that service pistol and all the others is reliability, not pinpoint accuracy.

The super-accurate competition guns built on the the very same platforms, but which have had their slides fitted to the rails and the locking lugs and barrel link mated these guns are capable of superb accuracy. But if you drop each in sandy mud and run over it with a jeep, the original service pistol will probably still function with the same accuracy it had before, where the tuned gun will be hopeless until stripped and cleaned.

Your service pistol may well benefit from a bit of tuning by a gunsmith to tighten up the points where the barrel mates with the slide and frame. Not so much as to reduce reliability in adverse conditions, but somewhere in between.

My friend had a S&W 9mm whose trigger was atrocious. Creepy, rough and heavy. A little tuning there might be in order before looking at the frame/slide/barrel fit. But since you did not mention the trigger I didn't think about it until re-reading my post.

Lost Sheep

Just my speculation.

 

[CraigC]

Like rifles, bench testing is the only way to properly evaluate a pistol's accuracy. Problem is, few actually do it. It takes a lot more time, effort and in the case of big bore revolvers, concentration to be able to shoot effectively from the bench. In my opinion, a good revolver with at least a 4" barrel should shoot well under 2"@25yds. With preferred loads, many will halve that. A high end 1911 such as those from Ed Brown, Les Baer or Bill Wilson should do 1". An average 1911 should do under 3". An accurate one in the Gold Cup class should halve that. A service auto like a Glock, USP, XD or M&P shouldn't be expected to do better than 3".

In rimfires, revolvers should be compared to other revolvers and a good one will do 1". A fixed barrel auto like the Browning Buckmark and Ruger MK-series will usually do a half inch or less.

 

[918v]

You know better than to evaluate pistol accuracy by firing it off hand. Too many variables come into play. Test it off a benchrest.

 

[LiveLife]

When I don't have access to pistol rest/sand bags, I consider 1"-2"-3" shot groups at 7-10-15 yards to be my minimum accuracy reference using factory ammunition/plinking loads off hand.

With known accurate match grade reloads, I consider 1"-1.5" shot groups at 15 yards good enough for USPSA match shooting. If I shot bullseye matches, I would test loads at 25-50 yards.

 

[LiveLife]

SW M&P 40c is in my opinion shooting poorly. Meaning at 10 yrs I'm getting 4-6" groups out of a full mag when shooting offhand slowfire and trying to sqeeze them off as good as I can.

want to make it shoot better (assuming no feeding issues, power rating irrelavent, etc etc) and just looking for better accuracy.... what would you change or tweek first?

I would verify the trigger pull first and then try 180 gr jacketed factory load to do a comparison range test verification.

If it measures 5-7 lbs, then you have the "old" M&P trigger and it may be causing your shot groups to open up. S&W fixed the 9mm/40S&W M&P model trigger as of this summer and when I handled the new models, they were much better at around 4.5 lbs (slightly better than new factory Glock trigger IMO) and had cleaner release and reset than my M&P40/45 factory triggers that were mushy/gritty with vague reset (around 7 lbs).

If you have the old trigger, you can fix the trigger by dropping in an Apex Tactical trigger or doing a trigger job. If you are using the M&P40c for SD/HD, I would suggest the Duty/Carry kit with 5-5.5 lb trigger. I bought my M&P45 with the intent to do the trigger job on Burwell's site and the trigger went from 7 lbs to just over 4 lbs and my shot groups shrank significantly (It now has the best striker trigger I have shot).

My current 40 S&W load:
Powder: WSF (6.0 to 7.0gr)
Bullet: Rainier 155gr FN (CP)
OAL: 1.125

40S&W has been my match caliber and based on the jacketed/plated bullet loads I have shot, 180 gr bullets have been more accurate than 165/155 gr bullets and Montana Gold jacketed bullets have shot better than plated bullets (Berry's/Rainier/PowerBond/X-Treme). Rainier Ballistics recommends we use lead load data for their bullets and I have found when Rainier bullets are driven to near max jacketed load data, accuracy starts to suffer.

Hodgdon load data:

155 GR. Hornady XTP WSF OAL 1.125" Start 6.2 gr (1070 fps) 26,100 PSI - Max 6.8 (1159 fps) 32,500 PSI

If you have not, on your next range trip, try a box of Winchester White Box of 180 gr TCFP along with your reloads to verify accuracy. If the 180 gr factory load produces significantly smaller shot groups than the 155 gr Rainier plated loads, you now have a reference accuracy group size to work with. For me, accurate reloads will decrease shot groups by more than 50% over WWB.

 

[LiveLife]

Lyman #49 only has load data for 175/180 gr jacketed bullets for WSF (no lead load data for WSF) and you could perhaps reference 1999 Winchester lead load data for WSF to load 155/165 gr Rainier plated bullets?

If you want to stay with 155 gr bullet, Accurate has load data for Rainier plated bullets. I listed 155/180 gr load data for Hornady (HDY) and Rainier (RAN) for comparison.

 

[Dr_B]

I've been wondering about this exact topic. I recently bought an M&P 9mm and my groups are around 12 inches at 25 yards. I'm not new to handguns. I can put all my rounds in 4 to 5 inch groups at 25 yards with my Sig 226. But the M&P 9mm is frustrating. At 7 yards, the M&P is plenty accurate. I'm just a little puzzled as to the spread of my groups with this gun at larger distances considering the easy trigger it has.

I should add those groups are shot from a rest.

 

[LiveLife]

M&P 9mm ... 12 inches at 25 yards ... I should add those groups are shot from a rest.

I do not have a M&P in 9mm but if that's consistently repeated shot groups, I would seriously look at the Apex trigger kit.

 

[918v]

And what would that do? He shot from a rest. He said the stock trigger was easy to pull.

 

[LiveLife]

918v, there's a good reason why S&W improved the M&P triggers for 9mm/40S&W models this year and later for 45ACP models.

IMO, I think S&W did good by listening to their customer base when developing the M&P line and and continuing to do good by improving the trigger, which I think was the only weak aspect of the pistol. With the trigger finally fixed, S&W now has almost "perfected" the M&P line.

 

[1SOW]

Sig 226 DA/SA: 34OZ, 4.4# SA trigger
S&W M&P...... : 24OZ, 6.6# trigger

I assume the same ammo was used. I don't know how the sights compare, but he lighter weight and heavier trigger make the S&W "harder" to shoot accurately from a casual range rest. A ransom rest would tell the story better.

 

[Dr_B]

I did shoot the Sig single action. So the lighter pull plays some roll.

I shot both guns the same day, using equal numbers of rounds in each magazine. Tried reloads and factory ammo, all 115gr. Same results regardless of the ammo.

All in all, l like the M&P. I bought it for an action match gun. Paper targets that l will usually shoot from 7 yards or less.

 

[Grumulkin]

Look at the Les Baer web site. If I remember correctly their regular 1911 pistols are supposed to do 3 inches at 50 yards and their supertuned ones 1.5 inches at 50 yards. For their bolt rifle, I believe their accuracy is for 0.5 inch 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

Those accuracy figures are, of course, for very well tuned guns and aren't the sort of of figures you would get out of any ordinary pistol/rifle.

 

[LiveLife]

All in all, l like the M&P. I bought it for an action match gun.

Not sure how far IDPA targets are set at, but USPSA targets are set at 7-15 yards average and some out to 25 yards and you'll need accuracy to be competitive.

Not only that, Apex trigger/trigger job will also shorten the trigger reset which is crucial for faster double-taps. Fast and accurate (1"-2" apart) "tap-tap" was "no go" with factory M&P triggers for me. With the trigger job, I can place all of my M&P45 double-taps out to 15 yards on 1/2 sheet of 8"x11" copy papers with ease.

 

[41 Mag]

What ever you do, only change one thing at a time, as your probably aware.

I have had excellent accuracy from my 10mm using Win primers, and AA powder. This said I have also had great acuracy using the CCI's as well.

Personally I shoot groups at a minimum of 25yds from a decent padded rest. If it ain't getting it there no since working on it closer or further. I have had little success using the plated bullets period. Not that others have not had great luck just m guns simply don't like them for one or more reasons.

To be honest one of the most accurate bullets I have shot form my 10mm has been the Winchester 180gr JHP purchased in bulk when I could find them. For what ever reason they are simply great in my pistol. The only other bullet which will exceed them in that weight is the Gold Dot, and they are my standard loads for hunting and HD.

I have shot hundreds of the Noslers in both 135 and 155 with very acceptable accuracy using AA-5 for the 135 and AA-7 for the 155's. When I say acceptable that is 2" or less at 25 with the rest.

I would most certainly give a couple of other bullets as well as at least a couple of powders a try.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I consider the accuracy you're getting with the Berry's to be about what I've seen their bullets to be capable of from a duty grade gun such as you have.
Try some Hornady, Nosler, or Sierra bullets.
The typical "service" grade semi-auto such as you have will typically give between 3 and 5" at 25yds. Some a little better.
A typical "target" grade pistol will shoot 1.5-2.5" at 25yds and a true match gun will run 1.5" or better at 25yds.

My favorite .40S&W load is:
155gr JHP (Remington's have shot well for me)
6.3gr WSF
Win or Fed SPP
Win cases
duplicates the original Winchester "Match" load for the .40S&W circa 1992. Just over 1,100fps. Won a bunch of "Glock" only matches with my M22..... with this load.
Drop to 5.5gr with a 180gr JHP for ~980fps. Also very accurate.

 

[popper]

GooseGestapo, bds - that helps me a lot. Same problem, is it me or the gun. So far I can do a 10 shot string 2 1/2"@25 from a bag, with my cast, XDm40. Plated runs about the same. My off-hand opens up to 3-5"@7, that's me, bad shoulder, eyes and age. One-handed is 4-5" @ 5 ft. I keep working on it but not too disappointed now.

 

[murf]

steve, where did ya go?

hope we didn't scare you away after just one post. let us know how it's going.

murf

 

[Steve in NC]

Lost Sheep,
The trigger on my pistol doesn't feel bad and I actually thought it was pretty good. But after reading several of the posts here, I will have it tested and possibly replaced/upgraded. Good point... thxs

To all the others that said to bench test...
obviously from my background with rifles I agree. I just thought it was the norm to test pistols in the matter in which they would be used. But what I hearing here as a whole, I could not have been more wrong. Not a problem... I own a few sandbags and rests to get comfortable at the bench without the expense of a Ransom rest. But it would be nice!!

BDS,
I shot some factory Rem 180gr JHP through it and the group was improved. Can't remember the exact size of the group but didn't really standout in my mind as all that great either. That told me there was room for improvement for me as the shooter, the gun itself, and my reloads. But a very good point.

The other thing I'm hearing from everyone is to simply try a good jacketed bullet rather than the plated bullets and see if that doesn't help. Also sounds like WSF is still rated in the top 5 list as a go to powder for the 40SW. Hope so, because I'm also able ot use in in my 9mm and for some shotguns loads that I use. So its nice to be able to purchased powder in bulk and use it for several guns.

Murf,
Marines don't scare that easy! hehehe Just been one of those weeks at work and first chance I've had to get back and respond.

Thanks to everyone and their replies. Hopefully check the trigger and go from there and then try some good jacketed bullets from the bench and see what we get.

Thanks again for all of the advice fellas! I will report back when I get some answers. And I will probably have more questions in the meantime on other aspects of reloading for pistols.

It sure is different loading 100s of rounds at a time rather than spending hours loading 40-60 good BR quality rifle rounds for a match. And it sure takes a lot less time to shoot those 100rds as compared to the 40-60rds through a single shot bolt action.

Steve

 

[gamestalker]

Hello Steve, Currently I'm loading for revolvers and a number of auto loading pistols, and high powered rilfe. At 10 yds. off hand my Son's and I can shoot 2' - 3" groups without much effort, and those groups tighten up considerably from rested positions, so the question is what makes the difference.

It could be the firearm, as already mentioned. Or maybe the load make up and process. As to your process and powder bullet choices I can't say, as I'm not familiar with how you do it. I will state this fact though, the crimp for common auto loading handgun cartridges such as the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP is not necessary if you delete the belling of the case mouth from the process, as I have done. Unfortunately, many reloaders are not aware of the fact that the crimp for these type cartridges does not have anything to do with neck tension and is only needed to close the belling of the mouth, no more or neck tension will actualy decrease. This is why bullets for these type cartridges don't have canelures. As to loading non jacketed bullets, I do not use them, and thus do not know if one can eliminate belling when loading with those type bullets.

My go to loads for everything we shoot from our auto loaders which include XD's, numerous Taurus's, and a few other's all chambered in either .40 S&W or 9mm is HS6 or Longshot. I don't load anything but jacketed, and I don't load plinking level performance stuff.

The process I use is maybe a little bit OCD, but what can I say, it works great for us.

1. I keep all brass, regardless of what it is, trimmed to spec.
2. I never crimp auto loading ammunition, I chamfer the inside just enough to allow the bullets to seat nicely, and ream the outside if it was trimmed.
3. I weigh each charge on a scale
4. I run my charges from middle published data to max using those powders mentioned.
5. I seat my bullets only as deep as is necessary to feed reliably, fit the magazine, and clear the lands.

Thats about it, not a real intense process for me. I've never been one to use faster burning powders for any cartridge as I find they are finicky and can present issues with spiking, and, or, inconsistent velocities, among other issues that ultimately effect accuracy and safety.

GS

 

[LiveLife]

The other thing I'm hearing from everyone is to simply try a good jacketed bullet rather than the plated bullets and see if that doesn't help. Also sounds like WSF is still rated in the top 5 list as a go to powder for the 40SW. Hope so, because I'm also able ot use in in my 9mm and for some shotguns loads that I use. So its nice to be able to purchased powder in bulk and use it for several guns.

I use WSF for all of my 9mm/40S&W/45ACP full-power loads but use W231/HP-38 for lighter recoiling accurate target loads.

I would suggest you try some 180/165 gr Montana Gold jacketed bullets, probably the most consistent target bullets I have shot.

 

[Steve in NC]

A little followup

Gentleman,
It has been awhile, but I finally got around to getting some jacketed bullets and getting them loaded. Took them to the range this past weekend. Wish I had more time to really bear down and find a great rest setup. But I shot from a sandbag that gave me an decent rest to see if I saw any improvement at all. Well, I went from very large groups at 10yrds to to 2-3" 5 shot groups at 25yds. I was a little rushed to shoot before dark but I was simply looking for improvement and I definitely saw that by using Hornady 180gr XTP bullets and everything else being the same.
I have since torn my M&P40c all the way down and will probably put the Apex upgrade in it shortly. Just spend several hundred dollars stocking up on rifle, pistol, and shotgun reloading components just in case this election turns for the worse and the hoarders come out in masses again.

So were are a little further down a much better road with this pistol.

Thanks guys!

Steve

 

[LiveLife]

Great! I love happy endings.