Everything Cooper would have wanted

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CaesarI

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Kimber's re-doing their website, apparently cause it wasn't wicked cool enough for them. I downloaded their 2003 catalogue, and what should my wandering eyes come across? But a stainless steel rifle with a synthetic stock that weighs a paltry 5lbs 2oz. The 84M Montana!

I have found her! Excalibur!

::cue fancy music now!::

Let's see here now light-weight, even with scope and sling it'll be UNDER the 6.6lbs (1KG for your metric folks).

The stock barrel is a little longer than Cooper would request, but if you cut it to 20" it'll be under the stipulated 1m or you can keep the 22" barrel and have the extra velocity.

Action?
"Two-lug, ninety-degree rotation [is] favored, as [is] the traditional Mauser claw extractor and positive ejector."
"The bolt knob should be smooth and round--not checkered--and positioned far enough forward of the trigger to avoid pounding of the index finger during firing."
The Kimber 84M does all that! Based on the pictures I can see it looks like one could machine it to accept stripper clips, which some of us prefer to detachable magazines.

I don't know if the safety disconnects rather than blocks the trigger though, and I also doubt that the magazine protects the soft points of the bullets. It doesn't provide any options for single round loading, but the trigger is adjustable, and can probably hit the 3lb glass rod release Cooper would like.

Pretty simple to fit it for the Ching Sling, as well as the scout scope (if you so desire).

You can bet money it'll shoot to within 2MOA at 200yards.

I can mount whatever back-up sighting system I want on it. If I want to follow the commands of Cooper I can mount the front post on further in from the barrel.

The only thing it would lack is the integral bipod.

The nail in the coffin for some of us though... it will be available in a lefty! Their 8400 series rifles are already out in Lefty configuration, and when I e-mailed the good folks at Kimber they informed me they had plans to put out a left-handed 84M.

Woohoo!

Call my quest officially over.

-Morgan
 
Uh, 1 kg is roughly 2.2 pounds (Near the surface of the Earth). I believe that Cooper specified a mass of 3 kilos, that comes out to a weight of about 6.6 pounds.
 
3KG is indeed 6.6lbs near the surface of the earth but I of course am at altitude, that changes things.

;)

Physics nerds :) . Yeah, it was a typo. 3KG is correct.

-Morgan
 
Ruger M77 International: The "scout" rifle that never started or wanted to be one. And looks a helluva lot better than most "scouts", too. :D (And uses a real scope that detaches in seconds and has iron sights for back up.):D
 
Well before their website went down for remodeling they had an MSRP of $900 naked carbon steel gun with wood stock. And I found at least one instance of them going for $800 with a quick search online.

This was the first I'd heard of the stainless "Montana" The wood model still weighs in at a paltry 5lbs 10oz, and its got wood :)

-Morgan
 
Mannlicher, are you trying to tell us that a fella who survived two nasty wars as a combat Marine and has over 70 years of rifle shooting is lacking in expertise? Could you outshoot him? Do you know enough more about the uses of a rifle to compare your expertise to his?

To which do you object: The fundamental concept of the Scout rifle, or Steyr's execution thereof? This question is much the same as, "Do you dislike the idea of cars, or just Checker's version?"

:), Art
 
Art,

I think Mannlicher is entitled to his opinion. I have considerable experience with long arms, both as a shooter and as a certified rifle instructor of many years.

If Cooper likes the scout concept, more power to him. IMHO, I agree with Mannlicher. The whole concept of the scout rifle seems flawed. I can see no use for it that couldn't be better served by dozens of existing rifles.

It seems to me that Cooper has fallen into the same trap as Jack O'connor and is trying to build the "one, all around rifle for every purpose." I don't think that an all around rifle is a viable concept. Just MNSHO!
 
Hey, I'm a strong believer in folks' right to opinions! I just like to know the "why" behind them. Opinions stem from reasons, right? And anybody who posts at THR can question anybody's opinion--yours, mine, whomever's...

And, after all, the Scout Rifle stuff is just one small part of Cooper's deal. Sorta like, Henry Ford did a lot more with cars than just a Model T...

The reason I asked about Steyr's execution of the concept is that while I think I understand and can go along with the fundamental idea, I think Steyr produced an over-priced Ugly Thing. It's one of those plumber's friend looking deals: It sucks.

:D, Art
 
I heard some funny Steyr Scout stories recently; suddenly my desire to buy one has cooled off to 0* K.

Mebbe I'll scope out this Kimber...
 
Brockman

Brockman's rifles, are in most respects closer to the Scout ideal IMHO, than the Steyr's, except they don't make weight as well as the Kimber's ought to, even with a wood-stocked Kimber, and a synthetic stocked Model 70.

But they will do the stripper clip notch machining for $105, and cut and crown the barrel (to 20" or 19") for $55.

-Morgan
 
El Tejon, my gripe is strictly with the looks, not the function. Rich Lucibella did an African trip with Cooper and commented that the Scouts performed exactly as intended.

Shifting emphasis, on "beauty": The car companies make dies on which they stamp out the sheet metal for the body parts. The dies for a Porsche cost no more than the dies for a Chevette. So why build stuff ugly?

:), Art
 
Morgan- I noticed that as well. But at this point in my life, 3KG vs. 7-7.5 lbs isn't too big of a deal. If I were to build a true scout, I would probably order a thinner barrel profile than the one that comes on the practical. It looks slightly heavy in the picture, I could be wrong though.
 
When cheaper is better

Well bearing in mind that the weight of 5lbs 10oz and 5lbs 2oz is with a 22" barrel, not the 18.5" or even 20" barrel Brockman's is offering, so there's some savings to be had there. It comes bedded, and free-floated, as well as with the Pachmayr decelerator pad. And even with all the goodies added on aftermarket will wind up being cheaper than the Brockman.

$240 Scope, $50 rings, $60 mount, $48.50 sling, $~5 3rd sling swivel, $105 stripper clip notch, $55 barrel cut and crowned, $~100 sites w/installation
= $663.5.
+$800 rifle
= $1463.50 and it'll weigh less, and be shorter in OAL.
saving me $1231.50 :eek: iff I provide the action... otherwise it saves me
$1527.95

With the money saved you could prolly afford to go to Gunsite. :cool:

-Morgan
 
I got a lot of respect for Jeff Cooper and anyone else who went thru two ugly wars.

Like some have mentioned, I have my reservations about the Steyr Scout at least on its bang for a buck. Further, I have reservations about Cooper's assertions that the bolt action is the crowning glory of the more than century of firearms design we have had since metallic cartridges were introduced. We (most of us anyway) demand air conditioning, automatic transmissions in our cars, microwaves, big screen TVs, and lots more bells and whistles to make our lives more comfortable or easier. Why should we think that rifles should be just the way they were when Peter Paul and Ferdinand were cranking them out contemporary with Henry Ford's Model T (or a bit before)? Just wondering...
 
BigG, I believe there is a misunderstanding. Uncle Jeff made no such assertion as to bolt-action weapons. He chose the bolt for the Scout concept to ensure that it would make weight and ensure reliability. He has been very positive about new technologies as applied to self-loading weaponry.
 
BigG, you're circling us around to "purpose". If I think my needs include rapid fire and numerous shots, I really doubt a bolt-action would be my choice.

But a fella out scouting around for either Bambi or information about what other folks are doing? His primary thought is one or maybe at most two shots. :)

I toted 9-1/2 pounds of go-bang for 30 years. Just the thought of my 6-1/4-pound rig makes me wiggle all over with joy and happiness and wild anticipation! :D

Art
 
Morgan- I know that a built-up rifle won't be as much as a full custom from a renowned smith. If you add in the cost of the McMillian stock, plus all of the other things that Brockman does to the rifle, the cost is relatively close. One thing to not remember is the value of the intangibles.

Besides, when one is spending top dollar on a rifle, it makes sense to go with what you want. The Kimber has features that you like, the Brockman has ones that I would rather have. And I'll still be able to go to Gunsite. Hopefully I'll take 270 in '05.
 
Well, Art, Jeff has always touted the scout concept to be the "go anywhere, do anything" rifle. This goes back about a decade or thereabouts. His original pet was the Rem 660 or was it 600 with the doglaig bolthandle.

I am not against waxing nostalgic, hell, I do it myself all the time. I just don't think Jeff's delusions are all that much more valid than my own or any of ours, for that matter. The romance of the Colt 45 Auto and M1903 Springfield (or Enfield Jungle Carbine) is a frequent occurrence in the ramblings of said gun writer.
 
Jeff has always touted the scout concept to be the "go anywhere, do anything" rifle.

What do you think could not be done with a bolt action scout rifle? Of course there is very heavy game. Then there is ultra-long range shots. And combat. The good thing is that all three of these combined probably make up less than 5% of field shooting. Maybe even less. The scout doesn't do everything, but it can do a lot of things very well.
 
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