Evolution of Hydra-Shok? Please Help!

[Steve in Utah]

Federal makes so many variations of the Hydra-Shock that it can be confusing to the average shooter as to what bullet version they're getting.

Can someone please help us understand how Federal has upgraded the Hyrda-Shok bullet over the years?

Many have heard of the recently introduced HST's, but what about the older and even newer / stronger bullets?

Examples of Federal 9mm ammo using Hydra-Shoks:

* Classic Line in 9BP, 9BPLE (both standard pressure 115-gr.) and 9MS (147-gr.)

* Premium Hyrda-Shok Line in P9HS1G1 (124-gr.), P9HS3G1 (124-gr. +P+), P9HS2G1 (147-gr. standard pressure), P9HST1 (124-gr.) and P9HST2 (147-gr. +P).

* Tactical Line in LE9T1 (124-gr. standard pressure) and LE9T5 (135-gr. +P).

Thank-you in advance of a clarifying reply!

-steve

 

[Heysoos]

well...

...to confuse the issue even more...I'm sitting here looking at a box of 20 9mm 135 gr. PD9HS5 H Hydra-Shoks... don't know where they would fit on your list, but they don't say anything about being +P.

 

[mete]

I think you've got things mixed up. Those with the 'HS' in the item number are Hydra-Shoks , otherwise they are not. The HS bullets have the central post within the hollow point. There have been changes in the HS bullets ,I know, to conform better to the FBI standards of performance......Some of the websites are confusing too !

 

[Steve in Utah]

Thanks Mete:

So it looks like the "HS" in the product number and center "post" inside the HP are the keys to identifying Hydra-Shoks - otherwise, the remaining Federal HP's are built like the more traditional cavities of other manufactures.

 

[Steve in Utah]

P.S.

So how does Federal's traditional (non Hydra-Shok) HP's compare to (say) Speer Gold Dots for example?

 

[Rob96]

* Classic Line in 9BP, 9BPLE (both standard pressure 115-gr.) and 9MS (147-gr.)

These are actually Hi-Shoks.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hydra-Shok Trivia

Many, many years ago...the Hydra-Shok was a pure lead bullet
without the jacket...and it had the post in it. Used to have a few rounds
layin' around here...Where they might be hidin' now is anybody's guess.


Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Steve in Utah]

Reply from ATK

Received the following clarifying e-mail from an ATK Specialist:

Quote

Steve,

Let me dive right in and try to clear things up a bit.

First, many of the rounds listed below are not Hydra Shok rounds so lets start with those. All of the 'Classic' loadings you mentioned such as the 9BP and 9BPLE are loads that use just a standard hollow point bullet. The
Classic line is our lower priced product that offers shooters a good, but less expensive alternative. These bullets are not Hydra Shok bullets however, just good old hollow points.

The Premium line is our higher end product. In this line you will find both the Hydra Shoks (P9HS1G1, P9HS3G1, etc.) and the HST (PHST1, PHST2). Hydra Shock bullets were created and designed about 1989. This was cutting edge technology for that era in terms of performance.

HST is our newest product and was just completed about a year ago. It represents the very best blend of the two styles (bonded, non-bonded). It is not chemically bonded, but because of the way the jacket and core are mechanically mated it holds its weight very much like a bonded bullet. Through barriers such as glass and sheetrock it performs remarkably well and actually expands greater than either the Hydra Shok or the Tactical. HST is the next generation of bullet and it offers better performance than Hydra Shok.

Tactical products (LE9T1 and LE9T5) are a Law Enforcement only line that is loaded not with Hydra Shok, but with a bonded bullet. The bonded bullet is much more capable of defeating barriers and staying together, offering superior penetration, weight retention and expansion over non-bonded bullets. Neither the Classic, Hydra Shok or HST are bonded.

So in a nutshell: Classic = std. hollow points; Hydra Shok is better, HST is the next generation of bullets while Tactical is the overall best bullet available by Federal in terms of performance through all the FBI testing protocols. HST is not far behind however and in some of the tests it actually outperforms Tactical, while costing about 25% less money.

Let me know if I can help any further,

Eric Pedersen
Law Enforcement Specialist
ATK

Unquote

 

[HankB]

Many, many years ago...the Hydra-Shok was a pure lead bullet

It wasn't an invention by Federal, either. IIRC, a line of ammo marketed under the "Scorpion" name was introduced in .38 Special - the bullet was essentially an HBWC seated backwards, (an old handloader's trick, by the way) but with a post in the middle. Seated flush with the end of the case, and loaded to ordinary .38 Special pressure, the loads were quite mild.

Federal saw the germ of a good idea, and bought either the company or the technology.

 

[1911Tuner]

Federal

Hank, I believe you do remember correctly. I haven't seen those
rounds in years...they may not even be here any more...but it
seems like Fderal wasn't on the headstamp. I could be wrong...

I do remember that they were .38 Specials, and that they didn't
seem to be very hot when I fired a few...and now we're gettin' into the
"remember correctly" part...Ain't gettin' old a pisser though?

 

[Majic]

To muddy the waters even more, the man who developed the Hydro-Shock for Federal jumped ship and evolved it into the StarFire. The post was deleted and a star pattern was punched in the lead core to channel the hydraulic action for expansion.

 

[Sunspot]

Old timers

HankB and 1911Tuner. You are both right on the money. I still have a few rounds of the "old" stuff hanging around in my ammo room.
BTW, there was different head stamps on the rounds in the same box.

 

[redpath]

Old timers

From an other old timer...

The original Hydra-Shok was indeed an all lead bullet made in the early '70's (at least that's when I first learned about them) by a company named Alberts. I still have a partial box of those bullets on my shelf. Recommended .38 Spl load was <800 fps.

I think that Federal bought the rights to the Hydra-Shok concept from Alberts though I am not sure about that part of the history.

red

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Old Timers

Well redpath...From one old timer to another...Welcome to The High Road.
Lotsa ol' geezers and coots here to mingle with.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[redpath]

Old timers

Thanks Tuner.

I forgot to mention that, I believe, originally, the Alberts bullet was only available as a component.

Also, more trivia for those who don't already know, Nyclad bullets were originally loaded in Smith & Wesson ammo.

red

 

[1911Tuner]

Nyclad

Also, more trivia for those who don't already know, Nyclad bullets were originally loaded in Smith & Wesson ammo.

Yep! I've got an empty box of S&W Nyclad .38s around here
somewhere. Federal dropped the line before I knew about it, and didn't gt stocked up...my loss. The Nyclad 158-grain SWCHP was one of the best
in the weight that I've seen. Sad...

 

[HankB]

Nyclad

Around the time Nyclads were discontinued, there was a lot of scuttlebutt that the .gov was exerting some not-so-gentle pressure on Federal to stop making them. Seems the nylon "jacket" on fired bullets didn't provide a consistent record of the rifling, making it difficult to "match" a bullet to a particular firearm.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nyclad Ballistic Fingerprints

Hank said:

Seems the nylon "jacket" on fired bullets didn't provide a consistent record of the rifling, making it difficult to "match" a bullet to a particular firearm.

I believe...IIRC... that it was because the nylon jacket tended to shred
after entering the target, and it didn't leave much to check. I could be
wrong.

Can anybody confirm or refute?

 

[Majic]

The nylon jacket did distort and shred on expansion/collision. It didn't offer any bullet support, just a suface covering to prevent leading. So yall are probably right about why they were dropped. As far as performance you couldn't ask for more from a self-defence bullet.

 

[Sistema1927]

My Mom and Dad just "retired" from travelling in their RV this past 15 years. I had a chance to take my Dad to my local range, and he bought along the Charter Arms .38 that he took on his travels all over the country. What surprised me was the fact that it was still loaded with the Hydra-Shok handloads that I had given him almost 25 years ago!

He had about a half a box left, and we fired those up. 3.2 grains of W231 under the wadcutter style with post bullet. All fired, and accuracy was decent.

I gave him some new Silvertips to carry, but those old handloads sure bought back some memories of my early days of reloading.

 

[Schmit]

the man who developed the Hydro-Shock for Federal jumped ship and evolved it into the StarFire.

I think that Federal bought the rights to the Hydra-Shok concept from Alberts

Geez. :banghead: :banghead:

First off, the man who developed HS is named Tom Burczynski. And he didn't jump ship. Tom's company, Experimental Research, does research for many different Companies. Tom is a brilliant individual and undoubtedly one of the top 5 bullet designers in the world.

Tom developed the HS bullet, patented the design and sold it to Federal. He then designed/patented the Starfire which PMC picked up… the HS didn’t evolve into SF it is a completely different design using a different mechanism for expansion. His next bullet design/patent was Triton’s Quik-Shok. Tom’s most recent design (currently on the market) is Federals Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ).

God only knows what Tom is currently working on.

 

[Model520Fan]

Gunny,

Thanks for straightening that out! Where did you get those pictures of me banging my head against the wall?

I actually still have a few rounds of the old Watkins Glen ammo with Hydra-Shok headstamp, from back when they were selling them eighteen at a time in red MTM ammo wallets!

520

 

[1911Tuner]

Jumped Ship? Not

First off, the man who developed HS is named Tom Burczynski.

Yeah! Wasn't he into the Black Talon project up to his neck too?

Just FWIW, A lot of testing in different mediums...including
ballistic gelatin...has pretty much led me to conclude that the Starfire is more consistent as to expansion than the early 90s Hydra-Shok design in the 230-grain class. have there been any improvements on the Starfire?

 

[Majic]

the HS didn’t evolve into SF it is a completely different design using a different mechanism for expansion.

If you design something then your next design uses the same concept only applied differently to achieve better results not called evolution?
Would the fact that Sam Colt designed the 1860 Army bp revolver and then improved it with the SAA not be called evolution?
Tom Burcznski (and thanks for his name as I had forgotten it) removed the post and replaced it with the starfish shaped flutes in the lead to improve on the expansion performance reliability of the HS where it had sometimes failed when the post was damaged. Thus another evolution in the hollow point bullet design.

 

[BushyGuy]

i am currently carrying 147gr personal defense Hydra-Shoks in my Ruger SR9 , i feel that 17 rounds of the Hydra-shok should be a confident personal protection round. i did some testing with couple of them they tend to impress me better then the gold dots and the TAP, i recovered a Hydra-shok it had full expansion everytime and penetrated pretty deep had harder time looking for the hydrashok then the others. sadly they are getting very expensive for a personal round.