Ex-Israeli Police Hi Power Clone

[tpelle]

The P35 Hi Power is one of my all time favorite pistol designs - If a Hi Power is set up right, I actually prefer it over the 1911!

Anyway I have an early MKIII, still with a forged frame, that was actually the first "serious" pistol that I ever purchased, back about 30 or so years ago. But that pistol has such a pretty polished blue finish that I just couldn't bear to use it for concealed carry. Afraid I'd scratch it or something.

When the Israelis started selling their Hi powers, I finally decided to look for a "beater" Hi Power. I preferred a police pistol, figuring it would have been carried a lot but shot little. Holster wear didn't bother me, but I didn't want a lot of pitting, and I preferred one with with matching numbers.

Anyway, for some reason, when I saw this FEG Hi Power on Gunbroker, it was calling my name:



Turns out that I think it worked out.

It does have an extra-large helping of patina, but it's accurate and reliable, and for some reason it seems to carry better and feel better in my hand than does my MKIII. It is a clone of the first model Hi Power, pre-MKII, and has the old humped feed ramp that is supposed to have problems with hollowpoints, but it will shoot the Federal Classic C9BP (the old Border Patrol load much used by Law Enforcement back in the day) all day long without a bobble so long as I use new Mec-Gar magazines. The Mec-Gar feed ramps are shaped to hold the cartridge with a little more of a nose up tilt, which is all it takes to make 'em feed.

The only issue I had with the pistol was that someone had driven out the trigger pivot pin from left-to-right, but this is a tapered pin that is supposed to go in left-to-right, but must be driven out right-to-left. When initially testing the pistol I found that the trigger pin would walk out. I used the old trick of inserting a roll pin punch through the hole on one side to the reach the hole on the other side, then using the little nubbin on the roll pin punch to guide the punch around the inside edge of the hole while a hammer is applied. This "moves" a little metal back into the hole to shrink the hole. Works great now.

The magazine disconnect on this one was removed - probably by the Israeli cop or their armorer that took the pin out incorrectly. But it left me with a 4-1/2 pound trigger pull with an easy-to-feel reset. Best trigger I've ever experienced in a Hi Power, and actually better than many of my other semiautos.

So right now I'm using this as my carry pistol.

 

[Eugen]

Nice acquisition. I like the patina of a well worn classic pistol. I understand your affection for BHPs. I have a 69C and a 75C Sport. They have a clear and simple design and are so well built. Yep, got to love the old steel. Great duty gun, but a little hefty for an EDC.

 

[CajunBass]

I think it's hard not to like a High Power. I consider it to be about the most comfortable semi-auto handgun I've owned, and one of the best shooting.

I've owned a couple of "clones" over the years, a FEG, and an Argentine one. Sold them both to finance other things. Now I've got a "finish challenged" Browning T-model from 1965. It's still got the magazine disconnect and I suppose I'll just leave it in. I don't carry it and it's got a pretty decent trigger as it is.





That ugly nail polish had to go.

 

[FL-NC]

A FEG HP clone was the first auto I bought at age 21 when I graduated SF training. Kind of miss it now. The pistol, not the training.

 

[tpelle]

Nice acquisition. I like the patina of a well worn classic pistol. I understand your affection for BHPs. I have a 69C and a 75C Sport. They have a clear and simple design and are so well built. Yep, got to love the old steel. Great duty gun, but a little hefty for an EDC.

I find that, with a good iwb holster and a thick reinforced belt, the Hi Power carries quite comfortably. But most importantly, I can shoot the Hi Power so much better than a more compact handgun. I am a pretty big guy, though, which helps with concealment. I'm about 6'-2" and 265 pounds with a barrel chest and wide shoulders, a 54" chest over a 38" waist, that whatever I'm wearing for a covering garment drapes well enough to hide the pistol just fine.

 

[jonnyc]

Not doubting you, but what about the FEG tells you it is Israeli police surplus? Police repositories have also served as storage facilities for guns that have been turned in, or confiscated for any number of reasons. I have seen lots of FN Hi-Powers in both IDF and National Police service but I can't recall any FEGs that weren't initially in private hands.
Does yours have any particular markings or proofs?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Not doubting you, but what about the FEG tells you it is Israeli police surplus?

Also interested. I knew FEG pistols are manufactured in Hungary and thought they came into being after Israel had stopped using the P35

 

[Panzerschwein]

I'd cerakote it in gloss black to look like new.

 

[bannockburn]

tpelle

Nice "working class" FEG! A friend of mine has a two tone model and it's a pretty decent performer.

 

[tpelle]

Not doubting you, but what about the FEG tells you it is Israeli police surplus? Police repositories have also served as storage facilities for guns that have been turned in, or confiscated for any number of reasons. I have seen lots of FN Hi-Powers in both IDF and National Police service but I can't recall any FEGs that weren't initially in private hands.
Does yours have any particular markings or proofs?

Well, you're correct. There are no markings on it. I was only going on the representations made by the seller. What it does have is a hole in the bottom of the grip frame where a lanyard swivel was removed, and this indicates to me that is has some sort of uniformed service in its past.

However, in the recent flooding of Israeli surplus Hi Powers that were on the market over the last couple of years there were, mixed in with the authentic FN pistols, some FEG pistols with matching numbers that had FN counterfeit roll marks, and some FEG frames that apparently went through Israeli rebuilds using FN parts. Israel did in fact buy FEG parts at some point, as they assembled at least some of their Kareen pistols from them.

I presumed that at some point there was an embargo that prevented FN from selling to Israel which resulted in Israel purchasing Hi Powers from an alternative source.

 

[drband]

left me with a 4-1/2 pound trigger pull with an easy-to-feel reset.

I’m curious. I have a FN pre-mark model with the mag disconnect removed (great trigger). You really can feel the trigger reset on yours? I absolutely can not even feel a hint of a reset on mine. My reading up on the mechanism indicates that the pivoting bar in the slide and the trigger connecting bar are just too small (low mass) to allow one to feel the change.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I suspect all "Kareen" pistols were made by FEG. Maybe some were assembled in Israel.

 

[WVsig]

Not doubting you, but what about the FEG tells you it is Israeli police surplus? Police repositories have also served as storage facilities for guns that have been turned in, or confiscated for any number of reasons. I have seen lots of FN Hi-Powers in both IDF and National Police service but I can't recall any FEGs that weren't initially in private hands.
Does yours have any particular markings or proofs?

Lots of FEGs were used by IDF and National Police forces in Israeli. CDI Sales/ AKA Cole Distribtuion in KY has brought in hundreds of FEGs from Isreail over the years. Not all IDF guns and National Police guns got identification stamps like this.

I suspect all "Kareen" pistols were made by FEG. Maybe some were assembled in Israel.

Not all Kareen pistols were made by FEG. Early ones were made with FEG parts. MKII versions changed to Israeli sourced parts and FEG parts. These MKIIs and earlier guns are 100% BHP compatible. The MKIII guns get a beavertail similar to Acrus BHPs but not exactly the same. This leads many to believe they were rough Acrus frames which were finished in Israeli with other Israeli parts. These guns are not 100% BHP parts compatible.

Well, you're correct. There are no markings on it. I was only going on the representations made by the seller.

However, in the recent flooding of Israeli surplus Hi Powers that were on the market over the last couple of years there were, mixed in with the authentic FN pistols, some FEG pistols with matching numbers that had FN counterfeit roll marks, and some FEG frames that apparently went through Israeli rebuilds using FN parts. Israel did in fact buy FEG parts at some point, as they assembled at least some of their Kareen pistols from them.

I presumed that at some point there was an embargo that prevented FN from selling to Israel which resulted in Israel purchasing Hi Powers from an alternative source.

No that is not how it happened. The fake BHPs were purchased by Iraq. Saddam Hussein wanted to purchase BHPs for the Iraqi Army. He was a big BHP fan but FN Herstal would not sell them to him. So he contracted FEG to do them with BHP rollmarks. They got just about everything right including rollmarks and even the proof of Liege. What they did not copy was the serial number. They used "L" and 5 digits. FN/Herstal used tons of serial number combinations often at the request of a contractor but they never used L ad 5 digits. The fake FEG BHPs are MKII type pistols with pre MKII sights and safeties IIRC.

Israeli got them as captured weapons during other conflicts again IIRC. CDI AKA Cole Distribution sold a lot of those as well. CDI properly identified most of them as fakes.

 

[WVsig]

The P35 Hi Power is one of my all time favorite pistol designs - If a Hi Power is set up right, I actually prefer it over the 1911!...

The magazine disconnect on this one was removed - probably by the Israeli cop or their armorer that took the pin out incorrectly. But it left me with a 4-1/2 pound trigger pull with an easy-to-feel reset. Best trigger I've ever experienced in a Hi Power, and actually better than many of my other semiautos.

So right now I'm using this as my carry pistol.

Did you put the gun on a trigger gauge scale? If you really have a surplus gun with a 4.5 lbs trigger I would suggest doing the click test and keep an eye on that trigger. 4.5lbs is getting close to where you can have trouble with hammer and sear engagement on a BHP. If you do not know what you are doing you can get hammer follow at that weight. If it is good to go congrats but keep an eye on it. Steady use could wear that sear past the point of safe operation.

 

[Kaybee]

tpelle, that is a nice looking pistol! In my opinion the wear gives it a lot of character.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Not all Kareen pistols were made by FEG. Early ones were made with FEG parts. MKII versions changed to Israeli sourced parts and FEG parts. These MKIIs and earlier guns are 100% BHP compatible. The MKIII guns get a beavertail similar to Acrus BHPs but not exactly the same. This leads many to believe they were rough Acrus frames which were finished in Israeli with other Israeli parts. These guns are not 100% BHP parts compatible.

I debated saying all or many. It seems is there is not such thing as an "Israeli hi-power." None were actually produced there. Assembled? Yes. Stamped? You bet. But unlike Uzi.. not made locally. Not that I have found so far. Was anyone in Israel making frames and slides for that pistol?

At any rate the FEG is a really good pistol. Enjoy it.

 

[tpelle]

Did you put the gun on a trigger gauge scale? If you really have a surplus gun with a 4.5 lbs trigger I would suggest doing the click test and keep an eye on that trigger. 4.5lbs is getting close to where you can have trouble with hammer and sear engagement on a BHP. If you do not know what you are doing you can get hammer follow at that weight. If it is good to go congrats but keep an eye on it. Steady use could wear that sear past the point of safe operation.

Yes, I did put a trigger pull gauge on it, but the gauge I have is one of those "fish scale" jobbies, not one of the hi tech digital ones. My reading may be wrong. I does pass the safety test, though.

 

[tpelle]

No that is not how it happened. The fake BHPs were purchased by Iraq. Saddam Hussein wanted to purchase BHPs for the Iraqi Army. He was a big BHP fan but FN Herstal would not sell them to him. So be contracted FEG to do them with BHP rollmarks. They got just about everything right including rollmarks and even the proof of Liege. What they did not copy was the serial number. They used "L" and 5 digits. FN/Herstal used tons of serial number combinations often at the request of a contractor but they never used L ad 5 digits. The fake FEG BHPs are MKII type pistols with pre MKII sights and safeties IIRC.

Israeli got them as captured weapons during the 6 days war and other conflicts again IIRC. CDI AKA Cole Distribution sold a lot of those as well. CDI properly identified most of them as fakes.

Yes, I knew that, but I was trying to be brief in my reply. Actually, from what I understand, when FN refused the sale, a shady eastern european arms dealer stepped in and convinced Saddam that he had connections with FN, so when Saddam gave him the order he went to FEG (still behind the Iron Curtain at that time, so they didn't have to worry about trademark infringement) and had them do up the fake FN roll mark. The joke wasn't BY Saddam, it was ON Saddam!

 

[WVsig]

I debated saying all or many. It seems is there is not such thing as an "Israeli hi-power." None were actually produced there. Assembled? Yes. Stamped? You bet. But unlike Uzi.. not made locally. Not that I have found so far. Was anyone in Israel making frames and slides for that pistol?

At any rate the FEG is a really good pistol. Enjoy it.

You incorrectly stated that all Kareens were assembled from FEG parts. This is not true. "produced" is an imprecise term for example SA claimed for years that some of their NM rollmarked 1911s were made in the US when everyone knew the forging were made in Brazil and the final assembly was done in the US. So were they made in the US or Brazil. According to the US govt and SA the NM rollmarked guns are made in the US.

You are making a arbitrary distinction. The general school of thought is that the early Kareens are FEGs. They were made an then imported into Israeli. Later FEG parts were imported into Israeli where the were assembled into complete pistols. By the time they were making MKIIIs most people believe that they were no longer using FEG parts. Some believe they were using Arcus parts because they look similiar. Many other people state that the Israelis made their own frames. Israeli was definitely making some of the small parts if not the complete guns. This can be confirmed because there is not cross compatibility with other clones. At this point there is a lot of gray area but I believe your statement that all Kareens = FEG is incorrect.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Used to own a Mk III. Good gun, but other modern options are superior (hence why the BHP is a discontinued product by FN).

 

[jonnyc]

Wow, lots of unprovable speculation here. After serving in the IDF, working with the Israeli Border Guards, and running a regional Israeli armory, I'll stick with my original comments....as relatively vague as they must-needs be. And since Saddam came to power in 1979, I doubt that Israel could have captured any pistols he ordered in the 1967 Six Day War, or any other Israel-involved conflict after that.

 

[WVsig]

Wow, lots of unprovable speculation here. After serving in the IDF, working with the Israeli Border Guards, and running a regional Israeli armory, I'll stick with my original comments....as relatively vague as they must-needs be. And since Saddam came to power in 1979, I doubt that Israel could have captured any pistols he ordered in the 1967 Six Day War, or any other Israel-involved conflict after that.

Did not mean to type 6 day war. Thanks for the correction. The rest is to my recollection accurate. The fake FN pistols were ordered by Iraq not Israeli.

If the hundreds of FEGs that have been imported into the US from Israeli were not IDF or national police guns whose were they? If you know different please enlighten us.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

The P35 Hi Power is one of my all time favorite pistol designs - If a Hi Power is set up right, I actually prefer it over the 1911!

Anyway I have an early MKIII, still with a forged frame, that was actually the first "serious" pistol that I ever purchased, back about 30 or so years ago. But that pistol has such a pretty polished blue finish that I just couldn't bear to use it for concealed carry. Afraid I'd scratch it or something.

When the Israelis started selling their Hi powers, I finally decided to look for a "beater" Hi Power. I preferred a police pistol, figuring it would have been carried a lot but shot little. Holster wear didn't bother me, but I didn't want a lot of pitting, and I preferred one with with matching numbers.

Anyway, for some reason, when I saw this FEG Hi Power on Gunbroker, it was calling my name:

View attachment 777223

Turns out that I think it worked out.

It does have an extra-large helping of patina, but it's accurate and reliable, and for some reason it seems to carry better and feel better in my hand than does my MKIII. It is a clone of the first model Hi Power, pre-MKII, and has the old humped feed ramp that is supposed to have problems with hollowpoints, but it will shoot the Federal Classic C9BP (the old Border Patrol load much used by Law Enforcement back in the day) all day long without a bobble so long as I use new Mec-Gar magazines. The Mec-Gar feed ramps are shaped to hold the cartridge with a little more of a nose up tilt, which is all it takes to make 'em feed.

The only issue I had with the pistol was that someone had driven out the trigger pivot pin from left-to-right, but this is a tapered pin that is supposed to go in left-to-right, but must be driven out right-to-left. When initially testing the pistol I found that the trigger pin would walk out. I used the old trick of inserting a roll pin punch through the hole on one side to the reach the hole on the other side, then using the little nubbin on the roll pin punch to guide the punch around the inside edge of the hole while a hammer is applied. This "moves" a little metal back into the hole to shrink the hole. Works great now.

The magazine disconnect on this one was removed - probably by the Israeli cop or their armorer that took the pin out incorrectly. But it left me with a 4-1/2 pound trigger pull with an easy-to-feel reset. Best trigger I've ever experienced in a Hi Power, and actually better than many of my other semiautos.

So right now I'm using this as my carry pistol.

My buddys FEG had the same issue with the pin walking. I machined a tiny groove into the pin and inserted a small c-clip between the trigger and frame. Worked great. Something to try perhaps if the problem resurfaces.
Also, his OEM mags wouldn't lock the slide open on the last shot, but, as you discovered, Mec-Gar to the rescue.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Used to own a Mk III. Good gun, but other modern options are superior (hence why the BHP is a discontinued product by FN).

Too well built (expensive) to be competitive in a mass market dominated by plastic guns. Same boat as the Savage 99, Browning Auto-5, or Winchester Model 12.
Plus, the machine tool set wore out again and they don't want to make a capitol investment in another.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Too well built (expensive) to be competitive in a mass market dominated by plastic guns. Same boat as the Savage 99, Browning Auto-5, or Winchester Model 12.
Plus, the machine tool set wore out again and they don't want to make a capitol investment in another.

Right. When you can pump a poly strike 9 frame out of a plastic mold in about 2 seconds by the millions, hard for an all-steel milled gun to compete at the price levels necessary to maintain production when even the hardest of core Browning fans stuck their collective noses up at new production P-35s.