Excessive caution at the range?
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Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Safety is supposed to be about using your brain. Not mindlessly performing rituals because that's just how it's done. Think about what you're doing. Think about the mechanics of it. Honestly, it's just like the sometimes overzealous commitment to the 4 Rules. They're guidelines for a thinking person to stay safe, not the word of God.
Are you willing to destroy your gun safe? You'd better be if you believe that "don't point a gun at anything you're not willing to destroy" is completely infallible. What about the floor of your car? Your gun has been pointed at that.
"Don't ever put your finger on the trigger unless you're willing to shoot". Guess cleaning a Glock or similar gun is impossible since you have to pull the trigger to shoot it.
Seems ridiculous to say it like that right? Because it is. The "rules" are meant to be used through the filter of your thinking brain. Just like all safety should be. Of course you shouldn't look down the barrel of a gun on a whim. But knowing the mechanics of your gun and the rounds is pretty simple. Bullets need to be propelled by burning powder. If there is no source of propellant, the bullet will not move. Clear the gun, get the ammo away from it, and have at it. Your brain should tell you that a some lead and copper inside a steel tube will not kill you unless it's moving. No powder=no moving.
Some people think looking at a microwave oven while it's on will give them cancer. These people are also unfamiliar with the concept of a Faraday Cage. Ignorance of basic facts and lack of thinking is not an appropriate "safety" measure. Use your brain.
Are you willing to destroy your gun safe? You'd better be if you believe that "don't point a gun at anything you're not willing to destroy" is completely infallible. What about the floor of your car? Your gun has been pointed at that.
"Don't ever put your finger on the trigger unless you're willing to shoot". Guess cleaning a Glock or similar gun is impossible since you have to pull the trigger to shoot it.
Seems ridiculous to say it like that right? Because it is. The "rules" are meant to be used through the filter of your thinking brain. Just like all safety should be. Of course you shouldn't look down the barrel of a gun on a whim. But knowing the mechanics of your gun and the rounds is pretty simple. Bullets need to be propelled by burning powder. If there is no source of propellant, the bullet will not move. Clear the gun, get the ammo away from it, and have at it. Your brain should tell you that a some lead and copper inside a steel tube will not kill you unless it's moving. No powder=no moving.
Some people think looking at a microwave oven while it's on will give them cancer. These people are also unfamiliar with the concept of a Faraday Cage. Ignorance of basic facts and lack of thinking is not an appropriate "safety" measure. Use your brain.
Nushif
Member
Ragnar said things I agree with.
FLCowboy49
Member
Is there really an issue with people being "extra" safe? Being in the engineering side of the Navy I have a tenancy to follow rules "as the word of God" when it comes to anything that has a potential to harm myself or others.
dmazur
Member
No, I don't think that's a problem. People can be as safe as they want.
I have a problem with people "preaching" safety rules as if they are the absolute end of the problem.
The "Four Rules" are often cited. While very good, these rules appear to be designed for safe gun use. Inspections / cleaning / administrative chores are conspicuously missing.
So yes, all guns are loaded.
If you pick one up, the safe behavior should be, "verify whether it is loaded / unloaded before you do anything else." After all, if you are going to use it, you want it to be loaded. If you are going to inspect / clean it, you want it to be unloaded.
And, after the unloaded status is verified and the action open, it is safe. Until you put it down. As soon as it leaves your hands, you can't really be sure about it. Someone else could have put a magazine in it and chambered a round. Unlikely? Sure, but the safest thing is to check it every time you pick it up, before you do anything other than treat it as loaded. And, of course, you maintain muzzle discipline while checking it.
I believe that is the spirit of "All guns are loaded"...they're loaded until you prove that they're not.
Further, to handle the problem of "others in the area" (such as at a range), it helps to have some kind of visual indicator that the gun is safe, before you ask folks to walk in front of its muzzle. This could be an empty chamber indicator, or perhaps just a requirement that the action be locked open or bolt removed. This is just a procedural expediency, to avoid the snafu that would result if you had everyone personally inspect every gun on the line.
Hunterdad
Member
I used to be pretty lax when it came to situations like this and maybe a bit lax on some of the safety rules as well. I never put anyone or myself in danger. Ever since I joined this new club and started shooting in competitions, my gun/range safety has increased tremendously. If someone at my club thought they had a squib, everything would come to a stop until it was figured out. You can NEVER be to safe when it comes to firearms.
Right on Hunterdad. I had the opportunity to visit a police training center recently and interact directly with the head of firearms training for our state. We were helping some kids with a science project for high-school - a project on guns. Watching how this guy shot was terrific, but I noticed something else that really hit home. Each time he went to pick up a gun, he paused. He wasn't just getting focused for the shot - it was like he was checking off a checklist in his head before he even touched the gun. When I thought about it, it made sense. In his position, even the slightest breech of any safety rule is a big deal. It made me think about the NRA courses where I volunteer. I now pause for a split second before picking up any firearm. I visualize what I am going to do with it, especially where I am going to point it. Keeps me safe and is a good example to the students. I'm incorporating it into my everyday handling of firearms, even when I'm alone.
dmazur
Member
Clarification -
There was an incident not too long ago where someone was dry-firing and put a hole in the wall of his den.
Nobody was hurt, but the guy was shook because he was watching TV, tired, and forgot he put the magazine back in.
One more dry-fire for practice. Bang.
I believe he said he was glad he wasn't aiming at the TV, like he occasionally did in the past.
So where is the failure?
I believe it was his desire to dry-fire while tired and with loaded ammo present. This is an administrative thing, not actual gun use. So he unloaded the gun, and therefore "knew" it was unloaded. Until he forgot he loaded it.
There was another incident involving an individual that put a hole in his coffee table. It seems he had a habit of pulling the slide back and pulling the trigger before putting the pistol in its rug. Well, there were numerous guns out that evening for a family show-and-tell, and it seems the son-in-law put the magazine back in when the individual wasn't looking.
Where was the failure?
Dry-firing as part of a routine before storage. Without an inspection.
The folks who cite the Four Rules say, "Well, at least they were following Rule 2".
I suppose.
But wouldn't it be better if they understood how to safely handle guns all the time?
Yes, I agree. You can never be too safe when it comes to firearms.
There was an incident not too long ago where someone was dry-firing and put a hole in the wall of his den.
Nobody was hurt, but the guy was shook because he was watching TV, tired, and forgot he put the magazine back in.
One more dry-fire for practice. Bang.
I believe he said he was glad he wasn't aiming at the TV, like he occasionally did in the past.
So where is the failure?
I believe it was his desire to dry-fire while tired and with loaded ammo present. This is an administrative thing, not actual gun use. So he unloaded the gun, and therefore "knew" it was unloaded. Until he forgot he loaded it.
There was another incident involving an individual that put a hole in his coffee table. It seems he had a habit of pulling the slide back and pulling the trigger before putting the pistol in its rug. Well, there were numerous guns out that evening for a family show-and-tell, and it seems the son-in-law put the magazine back in when the individual wasn't looking.
Where was the failure?
Dry-firing as part of a routine before storage. Without an inspection.
The folks who cite the Four Rules say, "Well, at least they were following Rule 2".
I suppose.
But wouldn't it be better if they understood how to safely handle guns all the time?
Yes, I agree. You can never be too safe when it comes to firearms.
GoWolfpack
Member
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FLCowbody49 said:
That's odd. Being in the engineering side of the Navy I tend to see knee-jerk reaction requirements implemented without regard to common sense obstructing the basic operational goal of actually getting things done.
Nushif, Ragnar said things I agree with as well. I'm especially fond of:
Safety is excessive when it is irrational.
Off topic; I would pay real folding money to see video of this happening.
TonyDedo
Member
Better safe than sorry - the guys who mock people for following safety rules are always the guys who are missing a few fingers.
jcwit
member
Would just someone explain to me how anyone should inspect a barrel on a Garand, M1A. Winchester 94, just wondering. Or for that matter just about any revolver?
dmazur
Member
A couple of years ago I believe I used a 1911 as an example of something that is difficult to disassemble/reassemble without more or less pointing the muzzle at yourself while you wrestle with the recoil spring plug. (There are minor safety issues involving the plug itself, which the 1911 likes to launch, but that wasn't the thing being discussed...)
Heavens. Can't be done. Violation of Rule 2.
After verifying it is, in fact, unloaded?
Nope. Rule 1.
That's what I'm objecting to. Not a high level of safety, which I am probably osbsessive about. But the belief that blindly following a fixed set of rules will ensure safety.
I believe there are way too many people handling guns who just don't think about what they are doing. I'm aware this can't be forced on anyone, but at least we can encourage thinking safety.
Like what Flopsweat posted about considering what you're going to do with it once you pick it up, but extended to thinking about the status of the gun as well.
Heavens. Can't be done. Violation of Rule 2.
After verifying it is, in fact, unloaded?
Nope. Rule 1.
That's what I'm objecting to. Not a high level of safety, which I am probably osbsessive about. But the belief that blindly following a fixed set of rules will ensure safety.
I believe there are way too many people handling guns who just don't think about what they are doing. I'm aware this can't be forced on anyone, but at least we can encourage thinking safety.
Like what Flopsweat posted about considering what you're going to do with it once you pick it up, but extended to thinking about the status of the gun as well.
Marty183
Member
mgmorden
Member
Its always up to you to determine your own level of comfort. If you didn't want to look down the barrel then that's your call and your right.
By the same token - guns aren't magic. If the bolt is open, the mag removed, and the chamber visually inspected to be empty then the gun is empty (and a hangfire is no longer a danger with a visually confirmed empty chamber). At that point it's perfectly safe to look down the muzzle. Heck that's exactly what a bore-light is made for.
By the same token - guns aren't magic. If the bolt is open, the mag removed, and the chamber visually inspected to be empty then the gun is empty (and a hangfire is no longer a danger with a visually confirmed empty chamber). At that point it's perfectly safe to look down the muzzle. Heck that's exactly what a bore-light is made for
.The problem is people recite stuff by rote when they don't realize that the idea is to be safe, not remember which rule is which and use it as a superstitious taboo, especially when it doesn't fit the situation.
Say I'm shooting at a range in the woods by myself. Am I going to leave the rifle on the bench, bolt open, pointing somewhere safe while downrange changing targets? Absolutely not, it's going to be loaded and slung on my shoulder. Nothing like being 200 yards away from an expensive item sitting next to a road.
There was one guy who would yell Going Hot! every time he started a mag. We had to inform him no one cared and the range was hot anyway. People like him and others who adhere to rigid practices and recitations of rules like a religion are why I prefer to shoot by myself, along with overly restrictive ranges. Yes, I will load a full mag, shoot standing up, rapid fire, and every shot will be on target, thank you.
As for the OPs situation, getting the bolt out of a Mark II can sometimes require a tool depending on that mainspring latch. I would have unloaded it, checked what I could see, then looked down the barrel, as I would KNOW the gun was clear.
Say I'm shooting at a range in the woods by myself. Am I going to leave the rifle on the bench, bolt open, pointing somewhere safe while downrange changing targets? Absolutely not, it's going to be loaded and slung on my shoulder. Nothing like being 200 yards away from an expensive item sitting next to a road.
There was one guy who would yell Going Hot! every time he started a mag. We had to inform him no one cared and the range was hot anyway. People like him and others who adhere to rigid practices and recitations of rules like a religion are why I prefer to shoot by myself, along with overly restrictive ranges. Yes, I will load a full mag, shoot standing up, rapid fire, and every shot will be on target, thank you.
As for the OPs situation, getting the bolt out of a Mark II can sometimes require a tool depending on that mainspring latch. I would have unloaded it, checked what I could see, then looked down the barrel, as I would KNOW the gun was clear.
mortablunt
Member
You are definitely right about not looking down the barrel and insisting on using a rod to get it out. What you did doesn't constitute obsessive at all; it means that you have a brain and used it.
Note: This referrs to malfunctions. If you have cleared the weapon then you can look down the barrel.
Note: This referrs to malfunctions. If you have cleared the weapon then you can look down the barrel.
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jcwit
member
So mortablunt, tell us how you inspect the barrel of a Garand, M1A, M1 Carbine, Winchester 94, most any revolver ect, ect?
Have yet to see the answer.
Have yet to see the answer.
mortablunt
Member
^ I meant after a malfunction. If the gun has been cleared, then you can look down the barrel.
Flintknapper
Member
Voltia wrote:
Then there are always those who will get the Heebie Jeebies at the idea of someone looking down a barrel no matter what the condition of the firearm. To those....I can only sigh......and go on my way.
The mainspring latch has a bias towards closesure, unless it was brand new (or rusted) you can easily open it with a fingernail, paperclip, knifeblade or anything that you can get behind it. The point being...it doesn't take anything "special" (I.E. wrench) to open it. Surely, someone (if not the OP) possessed whatever would be necessary to initiate the movement of the lever.
Agreed, only I would have removed the bolt too. Not so much for the safety factor (since a locked back bolt, no magazine and clear chamber are safe ENOUGH), but for the sake of others who might not know what was going on.
Then there are always those who will get the Heebie Jeebies at the idea of someone looking down a barrel no matter what the condition of the firearm. To those....I can only sigh......and go on my way.
jcwit
member
Now we're getting into the world of common sense. and the practical use of safety steps and inspecting/finding/repairing/and solving the problem.
If the chamber is open, the case is removed, how can a squib spontaneously jump out of the barrel?
Even a dark indoor range I imagine one could use his cell phone backlight to direct some light from the muzzle into the chamber/action.
I have no problem looking down the barrel of a gun that I'm holding as long as I've cleared it, even if there were a bullet stuck in the barrel.
Safe cautious behavior is great but you have to use common sense.
Even a dark indoor range I imagine one could use his cell phone backlight to direct some light from the muzzle into the chamber/action.
I have no problem looking down the barrel of a gun that I'm holding as long as I've cleared it, even if there were a bullet stuck in the barrel.
Safe cautious behavior is great but you have to use common sense.
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