It looks like my M1917 has excessive headspace as evidenced by protruding primers and excessive case stretching using full power loads. If I use reduced loads, this seems to be less of an issue. My question is there a way to adjust your die to resize your case to accommodate for this longer chamber? Or after you have fire formed the cases, then would neck sizing only be best because the case is now a fit for the chamber? It seems the headspace is not TOO excessive that it needs gunsmith work but want to hear what you experienced folks and maybe some gunsmiths have to say. Thanks in advance
Excessive Headspace Remedies
- Thread starter Chief TC
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- headspace issues
Neck size only works great on bottleneck ctgs you've fired in your gun... for your gun.... Not that much work to spec the chamber first in order to make sure it's measurements are within tolerances... Generally a tiny bit more volume and accuracy will be gained. You'll also have less wear on brass, dies and press... generally speaking... If that even matters
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JFrank
Member
Your die should have threads, back off a few thousandths.
Ill also add that since your FIREFORMING your rounds initially, either seat your bullets long to jam and run a lower charge weight, or size the necks upto 338 or larger then back down till the bolt will just close to create an auxiliary shoulder.
I generally prefer the auxiliary shoulder method, as I dont have to change my loading procedures after the initial neck bump. Either method will blow your shoulder forward to match the chamber instead of stretching the case just forward of the head.
After your cases are formed, only bump the shoulder back far enough for easy chambering.
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Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Second the Redding Competition Shell Holders, depending on how long you need.
N555
Member
Yeah I was having that problem on my 30-30. Since 30-30 specifications are more like suggestions. I shim my sizer die about 13 thousands.
Jim Watson
Member
Slamfire has ideas on fireforming.
Sgt_Mike1
Member
yes, just as others have stated earlier by either backing the dies off and basically neck sizing the fireformed cases or creating a false shoulder ( loonwulf's auxiliary shoulder .. same thing) for those cases not fireformed inside your chamber.
Once this happens (fireforming) the "excessive" headspace is not that anymore. it is properly headspaced (not as dictated by SAAMI but by your chamber). It can only be construed to be excessively headspace if Factory or SAAMI rounds are used. While using your fireformed (reloaded) rounds they are headspaced properly. Sounds stupid and wrong at first read but when thinking it through makes sense.
Steve in NC
Member
Chief,
Probably not recessive headspace in reality. I have a Remington M1917 that was my grandads that was sporterized. Being an old warhorse the chambers are generous and yes once your cases are fire formed to your chamber you can neck sized only and shoulder bump it occasionally. My Enfield is the rare exception to where it will group noticeably tighter when neck sizing only.
Mark your case heads with a sharpie if you have other 3006’s you load for. My Enfield brass won’t even come close to chambering in my M700 chamber.
If you are using reduced loads take a very very light dab of imperial sizing wax (any sizing material you have) and lightly coat your brass before firing. You will notice that the primers will no longer back out and the case and are forearmed a lot more with less stretching in the webbing are in front of the case head. I would submit that any case that you have already fired and the primers appears to back out is NOT fully fire formed in your chamber!!
Grease up your locking lugs as this trick actually decreases the brass to chamber wall grip and does increase bolt thrust . I have done this thousands of times in good sturdy guns and it works. But you have to understand what you’re doing and not on just any gun like lever or pump guns for example. You won’t have issues with an Enfield. Light coating! Like enough to make your fingers shiny is all that is needed. Then apply it to your brass. Don’t need any on the shoulder area. Just the neck and body areas.
hope this helps,
Steve
Probably not recessive headspace in reality. I have a Remington M1917 that was my grandads that was sporterized. Being an old warhorse the chambers are generous and yes once your cases are fire formed to your chamber you can neck sized only and shoulder bump it occasionally. My Enfield is the rare exception to where it will group noticeably tighter when neck sizing only.
Mark your case heads with a sharpie if you have other 3006’s you load for. My Enfield brass won’t even come close to chambering in my M700 chamber.
If you are using reduced loads take a very very light dab of imperial sizing wax (any sizing material you have) and lightly coat your brass before firing. You will notice that the primers will no longer back out and the case and are forearmed a lot more with less stretching in the webbing are in front of the case head. I would submit that any case that you have already fired and the primers appears to back out is NOT fully fire formed in your chamber!!
Grease up your locking lugs as this trick actually decreases the brass to chamber wall grip and does increase bolt thrust . I have done this thousands of times in good sturdy guns and it works. But you have to understand what you’re doing and not on just any gun like lever or pump guns for example. You won’t have issues with an Enfield. Light coating! Like enough to make your fingers shiny is all that is needed. Then apply it to your brass. Don’t need any on the shoulder area. Just the neck and body areas.
hope this helps,
Steve
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,290
Yes, start with the die too high, so the case isn’t sized enough for the bolt to close and come down until it does. FL dies are only neck dies (obviously only with tapered bottle neck cases), until they are lowered enough to contact the body.
Like this but more steps in between, I cheated to keep the video short and was already very close.
The ammunition might not function in other rifles but will be perfect for that one. Will reduce need to trim as well because the case isn’t stretched as much either.
Thanks so much Steve, this helps a lot. Appreciate you detailing your experiences. I shot about 30 rounds the other day that were first fired in the M1917 and I did neck size only and I did not have any primers back out but they did show the beginning signs of the primer flattening.
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Steve in NC
Member
"Thanks so much Steve, this helps a lot. Appreciate you detailing your experiences. I shot about 30 rounds the other day that were first fired in the M1917 and I did neck size only and I did not have any primers back out but they did show the beginning signs of the primer flattening."
You are very welcome. jmorris' post/video above is a good reference for die setup!! I bought a separate Redding body die and Type S neck die. That is a more expensive route. But that is my choice and not the only choice. Simply backing out the FL die and screwing it down until you can just chamber a unloaded brass case works all day long and twice on Sunday. And you will only need to do this when you neck sized case start sticking upon extraction. Maybe every 3-4 loadings... depending.
What you see here is still the same thing happening but probably with a higher pressure load that you fired in your OP, if I had to guess. What is happening is the brass case expands from the powder burning causing pressure. And for a fraction of a second the brass literally sticks to the side of the chamber and completely seals the chamber up. Its at this point that the primer can back out because the brass is held in place by the chamber walls and is not sitting all the way back against the bolt face. That little gap allows the primer to backout giving you the indication of excessive headspace. Eventually the pressure subsides and the case shrinks and you pull the bolt back and you see the protruding primer upon easy extraction.
Now if you repeat the same process above with say, add another grain of powder to increase pressure, the case expands and sticks, primer backs out, but then at some point the pressure exceeds the friction of the brass sticking to the chamber walls and the brass slams back against the bolt face with the protruding primer getting caught between the bolt face (which doesn't move) and the brass slamming back. It flattens the primer in the process. This gives the indication of excessive pressure when in reality it is light pressure.
By adding in the imperial sizing wax as a lube, you are preventing the brass from "sticking" and the brass slides back against the bolt face upon expansion and the primer never backs out. Then you end up with a normal looking with very rounded corner and easy extraction. All this indicating a light pressure load upon extraction and inspection the way it should be. You won't have protruding or flattened primers with all else being equal using this lube on the brass. Keep your locking lugs greased up so no galling is created. Normally doesn't happen with carbon steal bolts and action abutments. But galling does/can happen when dealing with SS action abutments. Just a little grease. Wheel bearing grease, any of the standard gun greases, etc. Don't have to be too particular in this application with a bolt gun. Just make sure there is grease there.
Hope that helps. My M1917 still shoots 5/8 to 3/4" 5 shot groups at 100yd with my full house 180gr Nosler BT hunting load. Not bad for an old war horse that is 106 years old. My barrel is stamped as 12/17 manufacture date. Enjoy your piece of history.
Steve
You are very welcome. jmorris' post/video above is a good reference for die setup!! I bought a separate Redding body die and Type S neck die. That is a more expensive route. But that is my choice and not the only choice. Simply backing out the FL die and screwing it down until you can just chamber a unloaded brass case works all day long and twice on Sunday. And you will only need to do this when you neck sized case start sticking upon extraction. Maybe every 3-4 loadings... depending.
What you see here is still the same thing happening but probably with a higher pressure load that you fired in your OP, if I had to guess. What is happening is the brass case expands from the powder burning causing pressure. And for a fraction of a second the brass literally sticks to the side of the chamber and completely seals the chamber up. Its at this point that the primer can back out because the brass is held in place by the chamber walls and is not sitting all the way back against the bolt face. That little gap allows the primer to backout giving you the indication of excessive headspace. Eventually the pressure subsides and the case shrinks and you pull the bolt back and you see the protruding primer upon easy extraction.
Now if you repeat the same process above with say, add another grain of powder to increase pressure, the case expands and sticks, primer backs out, but then at some point the pressure exceeds the friction of the brass sticking to the chamber walls and the brass slams back against the bolt face with the protruding primer getting caught between the bolt face (which doesn't move) and the brass slamming back. It flattens the primer in the process. This gives the indication of excessive pressure when in reality it is light pressure.
By adding in the imperial sizing wax as a lube, you are preventing the brass from "sticking" and the brass slides back against the bolt face upon expansion and the primer never backs out. Then you end up with a normal looking with very rounded corner and easy extraction. All this indicating a light pressure load upon extraction and inspection the way it should be. You won't have protruding or flattened primers with all else being equal using this lube on the brass. Keep your locking lugs greased up so no galling is created. Normally doesn't happen with carbon steal bolts and action abutments. But galling does/can happen when dealing with SS action abutments. Just a little grease. Wheel bearing grease, any of the standard gun greases, etc. Don't have to be too particular in this application with a bolt gun. Just make sure there is grease there.
Hope that helps. My M1917 still shoots 5/8 to 3/4" 5 shot groups at 100yd with my full house 180gr Nosler BT hunting load. Not bad for an old war horse that is 106 years old. My barrel is stamped as 12/17 manufacture date. Enjoy your piece of history.
Steve
Bcwitt
Member
You could also get some 35 Welen brass & reset the shoulder to the oversize chamber (3006)
