Exit Wounds

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Conical exit wounds

Thanks for your experience with conicals. I may give up on round balls if the much heavier conicals exit pretty consisitently.

One of the fun things about hunting the way Jim Bridger did is learning how he survived in the Rocky Mountains so long. Apparently the mountain men got along without many exit wounds, but will never know how many elk and bison they wounded that they didnt' get to eat.
 
Oh, Art. You already get the "aim small, miss small" thing. You said the same thing earlier in the thread, just in different words when you said that you aim at a spot on a deer, instead of at a deer. Even if you don't hit exactly where you mean to, when you're aiming at a specific spot on the animal, you'll hit within a small distance of it and have a similar effect. If you aim at the whole side of the animal, you may miss it entirely, or administer a lingering, not effective wound.

I have shot one deer with my muzzleloader. I shot it twice. Shot at it a third time. Each shot was separated by over an hour of tracking. I did not recover that deer. It was over ten years ago, and I can still tell you every moment of that day, especially how sick I felt watching it limp over and hop the fence between the farm I had permission to hunt and the Indian reservation I could not trespass onto without being arrested and having my weapon confiscated. She lay down in a grove of trees a couple hundred yards past the fence.

.50 caliber, 420 grain solid lead bullet. First shot, I aimed at the white spot on its throat. The animal was standing still, staring at me. I was in a solid position, less than 80 yards away, and that bullet should have killed that deer. I found a scrap of skin that looked like the bullet hit a high spot on the side of the animal and tunneled off a 3 inch long, .5 inch wide strip from her hide.

Drips and drabs of blood, hoof prints, and lots of tracking. I finally lost the trail and started casting wider for it, and found it standing on the edge of an alfalfa field, feeding. There was a blood spot on its shoulder -- I looked it over through my binoculars for about ten minutes and decided that had to be where I'd hit it. I was very upset, but calmed down, sneaked closer and farther south to be clear of some brush that was screening her chest, and sat down in a solid position. Broadside this time, again well under 100 yards away (which was my personal distance limit) and I aimed right behind her shoulder, 1/3 up from the bottom of her chest. I heard the bullet smack her side, she hunched up and ran the direction she was facing like a linebacker. I found hair and muscle flesh where she was standing. I cast around in the area, and found a thick, dry branch sticking out from the brush. It was broken, and there was a bullet burn mark at the break.

Now there was a steady blood trail -- 1 or 3 small drops every six to twelve feet or so. Some was on the ground, some hidden in the grass. More if she paused. She went into a creek bed and the trail was harder there. I resorted to stabbing twigs into the ground next to each blood spot, so that when I would have trouble finding one, I could back up, look at the line she'd been traveling, and figure out where the next spot should be, and then start looking in an arc in that area.

Finally came across her, nearly two hours after the second shot, bedded down in some grass and brush. She surprised me -- she jumped up and ran out of the creek bed before I recovered from my surprise.

She stopped and looked behind her halfway across another alfalfa field. I ran out into the field and rested my rifle across the pipe of a wheeled field sprinkler that was between us (didn't want to hit it, was why I didn't just shoot her from the bank of the creek). She was well over 100 yards away, tail on to me, and I just clean missed that time.

And then she limped over to that fence while I tried to speed-load my muzzleloader. Wasn't even a contest in that race -- she won, but I'm sure that she eventually became coyote meat in that grove of trees. I about threw up.

I went back and looked at where she'd bedded down, and there was a lot of blood.

That was the last time I hunted deer with my muzzleloader. I may again someday, but every time I think about hunting with it, I get sick to my stomach. I don't want to wound and lose another animal.
 
I always use "heavy for caliber" bullets in any hunting gun. I want an exit wound always.
30-30 gets a 170 grain
308 gets 165 or 180.
30-06 gets 180.
45-70 gets a 405 hollow base hard cast. (It doesn't need a heavier bullet) I only hunt whitetail and hogs.
 
I want an exit wound, for three reasons.

1. Two holes bleed more than one, and as the Original Post indicates, sometimes you need a good blood trail.

2. I expect to be able to "corner-to-corner" an elk, if that's the shot I'm offered. If I can't shoot through the animal from side to side, how can I expect to shoot diagonally through the animal and break the offside front leg?

3. It's the hole that kills. Make a big enough, deep enough hole in the right place, and the elk is yours.
 
There is some excellent advice in this thread from some accomplished hunters.

Art may have had the very best. Aim small and miss small!

I have had really good luck using Barnes when I want deep penetration, however I am sure a number of super premium bullets will work equally well.

I always want an exit wound. I have seen how devastating an arrow with a 100 gr 3 bladed muzzy is. With a complete pass through the animal expires quickly and tracking is easy.

In a rifle I tend to gravitate to good higher sectional density bullets that assure me an exit wound. In white tails I like a sectional density of around 0.250 in larger animals 0.270 is better, and if I was hunting really large animals I would look for better than 0.300.

Good luck!
 
I suspect a lot of the energy developed by the high velocity stuff tends to get used up when a bullet deforms. The energy to change the shape has to come from somewhere. I strongly suspect the more a bullet deforms the more energy is lost that could push it on through.

Handloader has ads for Northfork Bullets every month. They look interesting because they tend to hold a fairly consistent shape regardless of the velocity.

Speed kills, but there's a trade-off if the kinetic energy is lost to bullet destruction rather than tissue damage. I gotta think this is the reason a 6.5x55 has such a good reputation. Long, heavy for caliber bullet has relatively little frontal deformation compared to the remaining weight to push it along. Even at 1.5x expansion, it still gives a .40 caliber hole.

Guess I wouldn't worry about a particular caliber so much, as getting something that has controlled expansion, very high weight retention, and a very high S.D.

Question for our viewers...Anybody here shot an elk with a .45-70? If so, what was the load and results? Gotta think you'd get complete pass thru, and we're talking maybe 1,400 fps with typical loads.
 
Sectional Density and the short action sweet spot

In a rifle I tend to gravitate to good higher sectional density bullets that assure me an exit wound. In white tails I like a sectional density of around 0.250 in larger animals 0.270 is better, and if I was hunting really large animals I would look for better than 0.300.
Charles S. said.

Guess I wouldn't worry about a particular caliber so much, as getting something that has controlled expansion, very high weight retention, and a very high S.D.
redneck2 said.

Bob Beers has translated this sectional density stuff for us on chuckhawks.com. According to his tables, the bullet weights of .28 sectional density for popular elk calibers look something like this after I round the numbers:

7mm 160 grains
.308 190 grains
8mm 200 grains
.338 220 grains

I wonder how that sectional density perspective gels with people's real world experience on penetration and exit wounds? Do these sectional densities equate to exit wounds?

A couple of people have noted problems getting the new Barnes copper bullets to function in their rifle's magazines -- presumably because of the extra bullet length per the weight.

When I first chummed the water on this topic I posed the additional question -- can we get there with short action rifle -- as happens to be the trend now with all the new short magnum calibers? How well does a 300 WSM work with a 190 grain bullet in a short magazine? Will a .338 Federal handle a 220 grain bullet any better than a .308 will handle a 190 grain bullet in a short magazine? Will a .325 WSM handle a 200 grain bullet in short magazine? Will a 7mm/08 handle a 160 grain bullet in a short magazine?

Is there a "sweet spot" where Beer's suggested .28 sectional density works just right in certain caliber in a short action rifle? Does the .325 WSM hit the sweet spot with a 200 grain bullet? Does it have the combination of mass and sectional density to pretty consitently push a channel all the way through and elk and out the other side creating a blood trail that we can follow in the dark if we have to?

This is a lot of work to avoid carrying a longer heavier .338 Win mag in a regular-length action. If the .338 Win mag were a person it would be jumping up and down crying, "Take me, take me. Forget all this short action crap and take me!"
 
Handloader has ads for Northfork Bullets every month. They look interesting because they tend to hold a fairly consistent shape regardless of the velocity.

Redneck,

I haven't played with the Northfork bullets yet. But by all appearances they look to me to be the best of all worlds. I've heard nothing but the highest praise for them in both accuracy and terminal performance. I may have to give them a try soon.
 
What causes much of ostensible damage in exit wounds is projectiling bone fragments.

Picture #1 shows the results of a .300 Wea. Mag., 150 Gn. The ram would have been hit quartering...yeah...can you say it turned. What a mess, and the entrance wound was the exit wound. The point being, even an entrance would can be massive when bone fragments go "projectile".

Picture #2 shows the results of a 6mm Rem, 95 Gn Nosler Partition. After passing through the breast bone head-on, it completely detached the heart. Bone fragmentation also caused this damage.

View attachment 320070

View attachment 320071
 
Barnes in '06, Barnes in muzzleloader. Of all the game I have ever shot I only recovered 2 bullets. One in a frontal shot on a blesbok, the other a wildebeest.

Barnes bullets nearly always maintain 100% weight retention so the energy of the entire bullet mass is transmitted into the animal.
 
Barnes and more Barnes

Barnes in '06, Barnes in muzzleloader. Of all the game I have ever shot I only recovered 2 bullets. One in a frontal shot on a blesbok, the other a wildebeest.

sublimaze41,

Let's make sure I understand you -- you like Barnes bullets.

In your 06, do you shoot the same weight Barnes TS as you would if you were shooting a more traditional lead core bullet?

Guess I'll have to go buy the Barnes reloading manual and study up.
 
What does this bone fragment stuff mean?

What causes much of ostensible damage in exit wounds is projectiling bone fragments.

Doc,

So what does this bone fragment stuff mean? Aim for the shoulder and forget about eating chuck roast? Aim for rhe lungs and try not to hit the shoulder bone?

Your pictures remind me of the .220 Swift shooter who observed he'd never seen an exit wound in a prairie dog. So? I know a logging truck driver in Idaho who illeagally shot several elk from the cab of his logging truck with a .220 Swift. He shot them in the neck and commented that he didn't waste much meat. So?

This bone fragment stuff might be more meaningful in a discussion about putting down cape buffalo, than talking about exit wounds in elk. I'm not really sure. Explain it to me.

What's the real world application of this knowledge about projectiling bones when you are shooting big game and highly value the meat?

Bone or no bone?
 
The "shoot them in the guts" bunch are always looking for that magic bullet.
There is no substitute for good bullet placement. It is not fair to the animal when a hunter botches a shot and inflicts undue pain and suffering on that animal.
 
If nobody had looked for a better bullet we'd all still be shooting patched round balls.

Come to think of it, I am still shooting patched round balls.

Never mind.
 
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