Expansion test of Geco 38spl 158gr JHP

[MIL-DOT]

After receiving no replies on my recent question asking about this ammo, a box I'd ordered arrived this morning, and I just did a test of it myself, and thought some might find it useful.
I fired from a prone postion, into 4 water-filled jugs, from a distance of 6-7 feet. Barrel length was 4.25". The first jug had a folded (6-layer) piece of bedsheet duct-taped on it, and the last jug was placed in a 5-gal bucket, to hopefully contain the projectile should it escape the 4th container.
The round hit dead-on the target circle I'd drawn on the folded cloth, but then veered down and to the left from there.
The bullet penetrated all 4 jugs, but was not found inside the last jug, or the bucket, and it took a couple minutes of hunting till I spotted it on the ground.
It seemed to have bounced off the back (bottom) of the bucket, out into the open.
All but one of the flukes were sheared from the projectile, but i never found any of those.
The lead core was almost un-deformed, no expansion whatsover.
I'd purchased this ammo based on Geco's reputation for high quality, hoping for a more ecomomical alternative for a self-defense .38spl round, but given this (admitedly limited) result, I'm thinking this ain't what it might have been. Their FMJ's are still very good quality and a real deal right now, but I won't be buying any more Geco JHP's.
That is all.

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[200Apples]

.
Well, aaawlllrrrightythen.


[Edit:] Thanks for the heads up!

 

[MedWheeler]

Is this a +P load?

 

[MIL-DOT]

Is this a +P load?

No (but the manufacturer-claimed velocity is 968fps, which is in the +P range, and typical for ammo loaded to European CIP-specs, which was a mjaor reason I took a chance on it. )

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have not heard if that ammo so I can't comment on its reputation. It looks like the HP was filled by the cloth preventing it from expanding.

If available where you are Speer GDHP ammo is a good choice in SD ammo as is Hornady Critical Defense ammo. There are others but those two I trust.

 

[MIL-DOT]

..... It looks like the HP was filled by the cloth preventing it from expanding.

If available where you are Speer GDHP ammo is a good choice in SD ammo as is Hornady Critical Defense ammo. There are others but those two I trust.

Yeah, the cavity may well have filled with cloth, but I never saw any. Also, it's almost a given that any self defense shooting is going to have the bullet go through some clothing, but it's still supposed to expand properly (hence Federal's development of the HST's from the Hydra-shoks).
And I realize there are several high quality SD rounds out there (I have some of them), but as I mentioned, I was thinking this might turn out to be a much more economical option, at $20,delievered. No harm in checking them out, eh?
Gold Dots run over $40 on-line, and even more locally. (and before someone gives me the inevitable "my life's worth another $20"-speech, as I said, I already have some of the popular, high-end SD rounds, I was just wondering if these might be a more economical competitor to them.)

 

[MIL-DOT]

I have not heard if that ammo so I can't comment on its reputation.......

It's from an old German company, and is manufactured primarilly in Germany and Switzerland, and some in Hungary, as I understand. It's predictably much more popular and well known in Europe, but has a stellar reputation everywhere for being consistent, accurate, clean, and high powered. It also tends to be very economical, comparitively.
I started buying it a couple years ago after reading nothing but glowing reports on it on numerous firearm forums. But for these non-expanding hollow-points, it's very high quality, I like the stuff. Even my local gunstore now carries it in 9mm, and I think it's their best deal on 9mm FMJ's.

 

[MedWheeler]

I appreciate the thread. It gives me something to consider keeping in my two recently-acquired five-shooters, neither of which is +P rated. One is a stainless Taurus 85 with the 3-inch barrel, and the other a stainless Charter Arms Undercover (1.87-inch) from around 1984 or 1985.

I don't normally carry a wheelgun, but every now and then, I get a little nostalgic..

 

[ArchAngelCD]

MIL-DOT, I had a feeling you might not be able to get the Gold Dots or if you could the price would be very high, sorry. No, nothing at all wrong with looking for a less expensive ammo.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Sure, bro, I get that, no worries . I agree that the GD's are among, if not the best, SD rounds currently available, and i actually have most of a box of 125gr .38 +P Gold Dots, (that I don' even know where it came from,LOL), I use that stuff in the couple revolvers I keep loaded.
I looked into getting some of the 135gr +P short-barrel stuff, but as I mentioned, it's $40+ delivered for a box of 50, and locally, $26 +tax for a box of 20 !! I'll probably bite the bullet and get some eventually, but I'm not hurting for decent quality .38 ammo, so there's no rush.

 

[antiquus]

If they are claiming 968fps, and being CIP spec, they might very well be considered +P rounds. The CIP spec has no +P, and the limit is 21.7kpsi. SAAMI's limit for +P is 18.5kpsi.

 

[fireman 9731]

I wonder that maybe since the gun culture is so different in Europe that they don't do nearly the testing and R&D for defensive rounds like Americans do. I'd say the market for self defense ammo in Europe is a fraction of what it is here.

I can see the guys at Geco saying: "So you want a hollow point bullet? Sure, we can make a hollow point bullet."

Consumer says:"But it doesn't expand!"

Geco:"Oh, you wanted it to expand? What for?"

And maybe I'm totally wrong here but I don't know of any non-american made ammo that reliably expands with the exception of the Duplex Shotgun slugs.

 

[MIL-DOT]

If they are claiming 968fps, and being CIP spec, they might very well be considered +P rounds. The CIP spec has no +P, and the limit is 21.7kpsi. SAAMI's limit for +P is 18.5kpsi.

Yep, exactly what I was thinking. But, it's not uncommon for ammo manufacturers to claim a given velocity, and to have it disproven by amatuer testers. But, I was thinking that given the German's known propensity for adhering to rules, and being sticklers for details, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't have access to a chrono to test their claims.

I wonder that maybe since the gun culture is so different in Europe that they don't do nearly the testing and R&D for defensive rounds like Americans do. I'd say the market for self defense ammo in Europe is a fraction of what it is here.
I can see the guys at Geco saying: "So you want a hollow point bullet? Sure, we can make a hollow point bullet."

Consumer says:"But it doesn't expand!"

Geco:"Oh, you wanted it to expand? What for?"

And maybe I'm totally wrong here but I don't know of any non-american made ammo that reliably expands with the exception of the Duplex Shotgun slugs.

All good points, IMO. A few years ago a shooting buddy (that was semi home-bound and on disability, and has since passed away), had mentioned he wanted to pick up some new 9mm hollow points. At one point i was making an order with sportsmanguide, and saw a really good price on HP's from Sellier & Bellot, who's normally a quality manufacturer. So i called my buddy and asked if he wanted me to toss a box or two in with the order I was about to place, and he did.
This guy was a big fan of doing milk-jug expansion tests on ammo, and he later told me (and showed me) that this S&B HP ammo didn't expand for squat. I mean like almost ZERO deformation in water-filled jugs, you probably could've reloaded those rounds, and i learned a lesson that day (which is why I tested this ammo instead of assuming it would expand properly).
By the way, I'm currently collecting jugs for another test round, this time with no cloth taped top the first jug, but i'd almost be willing to bet that the results are the same.

 

[ljnowell]

If they are claiming 968fps, and being CIP spec, they might very well be considered +P rounds. The CIP spec has no +P, and the limit is 21.7kpsi. SAAMI's limit for +P is 18.5kpsi.

+p should be 20kpsi.

 

[Steve C]

.38 spl 158gr JHP's are essentially target ammo for anything you'd shoot with a solid bullet. 158gr JHP's just can't be driven fast enough using +P pressure from a handgun to ensure expansion. Speer quite publishing load data for their jacketed 158gr bullets for .38 spl noting that issue. Maybe from a rifle they would have minimal expansion as the velocities may be 1,000 fps or perhaps a bit more.

For expansion with the .38 spl using 158gr bullets you need the softer lead hollow point that is not jacketed. If you want to use a jacketed bullet in the .38 spl that will expand a lighter bullet is needed like the 130 gr short barrel designed to expand at low velocities of 900 fps or standard jhp's in the 125gr to 110gr weight that can be driven to 1,000 fps +.

 

[Panzerschwein]

There is a kitty picture.

 

[the Black Spot]

What about testing in other mediums like wet phone books or newspapers? Or how about a folded sheet, 3/8" piece of plywood and then a jug of water?

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

If it wont expand in water, it wont expand in anything except sand/dirt or against a concrete wall. Most heavy jhp in. .38 special have a hard time expanding due to their low velocity and the fact that most projectiles are made for the .357.

 

[Jim Watson]

Re CIP standards:

I recall the old Norma .38 Special Magnum, alleged to be standard pressure but higher than usual velocity due to Special Sauce gunpowder. Sound familiar?
Tested in a SAMMI lab, it was +P but not maximum +P. And it was pretty fast.

 

[SeanSw]

I'm not an ammo expert or reloader but isn't there a general rule that the jacketing in a JHP slows the bullet in the barrel AND makes it harder to expand than a soft lead slug? It always seemed to me that the strength of the .38 special was being in "heavy" for caliber (compared to .380. 9x18, 9x19, etc) and penetrating well without needing to be driven to light speed.

The pictures did not load for me and I can't see what firearm you used for the test. Other evidence online show that even .357 magnum 158gr jhp struggles to expand from <4" barrels so the results GECO test are not surprising.

 

[the Black Spot]

If it wont expand in water, it wont expand in anything except sand/dirt or against a concrete wall. Most heavy jhp in. .38 special have a hard time expanding due to their low velocity and the fact that most projectiles are made for the .357.

Does that apply to just JHP's or all bullets? The reason i ask is i may switch my test medium. Currently using 4 gal plastic bucket and three outdated enclylopedias stacked in there. 40 cal xtps dont expand, but soft lead wadcutters and SWC's do.