Expert Home Defense Advice

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dinopoker

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Remember, it's home defense, not offense. If you're ever really in this situation just call the cops, close and lock your bedroom door, get some cover (the bed will do), and then KILL THE LIGHTS. If someone sounds like they're really outside your door call out a really loud warning that the police are on the way and if you don't hear them running off just let them have it right through the door (be sure to aim low - panic situations tend to make people miss high). Game over. If he has a friend who still wants to play wait until that guy makes it to the same doorway and then let him have it too.

At this point just reload and stay put. Do not go and investigate - wait for the cops, or tell the 911 operator what just happened. If you hear one of the dudes moving around or something just order him to lie still or you'll fire again. By now he'll probably believe you.

If someone is in your home, you've warned them, called the cops etc., and they are still coming into your defensive room anyways, then all bets are off. When we ran simulations on this those that shot through the door or wall had a better chance of surviving than those who didn't because, tactically, the enemy was at fairly large disadvantage by being in a known position whereas the homeowner's was still unknown. Obviously this brings into possibility that the person on the other side of the door is just some random drunk or something, but that is a consideration for after the gunfight - not during! In the scenario I described, if you wait for the person to enter and be identified, there is a greater chance that gunfire will be EXCHANGED, and thereby that members of the defensive party will get hit. In my scenario when you shoot through the door or wall there's a greater chance you will shoot the mailman or something, but there's also a greater chance that you'll be alive to realize it. Draw your own conclusions.

That scenario was kind of shown in the movie Saving Private Ryan in the scene where the soldiers were in the room in the building and they heard someone coming up the stairs. They called out a warning iirc, but when the unknown party didn't stop they just said **** it and fired right through the wall and to hell with the consequences. They didn't know for sure that it was the enemy out there, and it probably went against what they were trained to do, but things are different when your life is on the line. They had a tactical advantage so they used it.

As far as weapon selection goes, a double-barreled shotgun would be just as good (and cheaper) because they really don't take that long to load and if you're in the above described scenario and you really need more than two shots, it's probably because you're dead.

Same goes for revolver vs. semiauto. Most people don't look after their guns properly and revolvers are pretty much guaranteed to fire no matter what. Most people also leave their guns loaded, or the magazines loaded for sure, and a lot of people swear that leaving them loaded like this wears out the spring and can cause a jam. Glock insists that's not true and I happen to think they make a fine product but that isn't the case with a lot of manufacturers and, again, the one time it doesn't work is the time you're dead. (Glock's also have a tricky trigger imo.)

A word on attaching a flashlight to your firearm. This is another trade off. The light's main advantage is that wherever it's shining is where the bullets go. The disadvantage is that it gives away your position and it's a real easy target to see and draw a bead on.

As for identification in a REAL combat situation identification is easy; anyone who isn't YOU is the [] enemy - don't forget it.
 
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I'm curious who the expert that wrote this is. I think if something is going to be labeled expert advice it should come with the credentials of the expert in question. Also, I am certainly not an expert, but I think you are ignoring one of the fundamental rules of firearms, KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT.

Edit: I see your "advice" was already soundly rejected on a POKER forum.
 
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Welcome to THR, dinopoker. It might be that S&T isn't the best place on THR for an inaugural post without reading here for a long time, though...

Number One right off the bat, please name your expert. When copying and pasting material here, posting links along with the material is expected. Inquiring minds want to know who is promulgating this particular advice. Especially since it runs... somewhat counter... in some regards to some long established advice from widely known and generally recognized experts.

Number Two, this ISN'T combat. This is life in a society where the rule of law eventually has some say in matters. All bets are not off- not yet, anyway. And it does not pay to act as if there are no consequences to actions.

Please take time to look at http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp and look at the class description for Personal Protection In The Home. For simplicity's sake, here it is:

The NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to the safe and efficient use of a handgun for protection of self and family, and to provide information on the law-abiding individual’s right to self-defense. This is an eight-hour course. Students should expect to shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition. Students will learn basic defensive shooting skills, strategies for home safety and responding to a violent confrontation, firearms and the law, how to choose a handgun for self-defense, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection In The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, and course completion certificate.

The NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course participants must be law abiding, adults (at least 21 years old), and experienced shooters (shooters able to show mastery of the basic skills of safe gun handling, shooting a group, zeroing the firearm, and cleaning the firearm) to maximize what can be learned from this course. Proof of shooting experience can be one of the following: NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate, NRA FIRST Steps Course Certificate, NRA pistol competitive shooting qualification card, military DD 214 with pistol qualification, or passing the Pre-Course Assessment.


That's a pretty basic starting point. As to experts, well...

Stay Safe,

lpl
 
Okay, maybe I'm no expert by any definition of the word that you would use, but this is all sound advice. We ran simulations on this.

Also, hilarious that someone named after a Howard stern Show character would accuse other people of trolling.
 
I always read these... and I find a lot of them lacking in certain considerations.

It is often recommended to take cover in your room, guard the doorway against intrusion, etc.

My issue is, I have children. One currently, and one on the way. Their rooms are on opposite sides of the living room, which the front door opens on.

If I hear a noise in the house, I have no other option but to hunt it down. I need to make sure to protect my children, and that requires I leave the safety of my bedroom. It's also a single level, and so therefore, no securing the top of the stairs or anything like that.

Some home layouts are just not setup with intrusion defense in mind.
 
dinopoker said:
Okay, maybe I'm no expert by any definition of the word that you would use,...
Well, I'm glad that's settled.

I won't claim to be an expert either (one is only an expert when an expert calls him one). But I am an NRA certified instructor for Personal Protection Inside the Home, among other courses. I'd say it's a very bad idea to shoot without identifying your target.
 
Okay, maybe I'm no expert by any definition of the word that you would use

That was evident from your subsequent advice, which is anything by "sound".

Shooting through a closed door is dangerous, at best and stupid at worst. What if it's the police (that YOU just called) trying to save you? THAT'S a big can of worms you just dumped on your own head!!!

If you've thought this through enough to have an "Alamo" room, certainlky you are behind cover and concelament with your weapon pointed at the door. If a BG opens the door, you WILL have the drop on them (unless you've been yelling - another bad idea and giving up your position).

Shooting at noises through doors and walls is great in the movies, but not good in real life. Even if it is the BG, the prospecutor will make you out to be a reckless yahoo that will shoot at anything.

I'd rather identify my target and then shoot, if necessary.

My apologies if you are a legit poster. But I have to say, that for a first post on these boards, misrepresenting yourslef as an expert AND passing off questionable (at best) advice is a dubious beginning.
 
Welcome to the Forums.

Im not a expert either.

Saving Pvt Ryan was a war movie and that particular scene was shot the way it was shot. You can introduce a million variables into that small building and have a thousand outcomes. They did what they did and that is that... no 911 around for the next.. oh... until 1976.

I have several issues with your post. Nothing serious, but consider a wife with medical issues and myself. We are 24/7 sometimes one sometimes both together in the same dwelling. Our house is a living thing 24.7

We use code phrases, plan of day and constant contact to adapt to the day when life throws up a curveball... like the lost stranger on the porch....

We assess, adapt and follow through.

We dont seek combat, we are not soldiers and have nothing to rely on except our own ability to learn, shoot at range, clean and maintain weapons, procure ammuntion suitable for our specific situation, examine alternatives and learn the law as best as we can.

We have tried different things and murphy has shaken some things loose. For example. The weapons lights. They fall off the shotguns because of the extreme blast. So we subistute reflex sight and use whatever light is availible... even just the moonlight if necessary.

We can even ditch the fancy and just use the bead sight if things really became difficult.

Not to go any deeper we do have several plans, some of which are geared towards helping others, not killing them .. it all depends.

Take care and be safe out there.

No two home defense scenarios will play out the same.

Last year three teens broke into a west little rock home in a rather well-to-do area wealthy homes. They were discovered downstairs in the living room by the owner a LEO. Handgun fire was exchanged.

All fled home in a getaway car. one showed up at a hospital with a GSW, another abandoned the car and vanished and one was captured. It will take weeks before the third and last turned himself in after lawyering up of course. The GSW was patched up, discharged straight into little rock police custody at the hospital.

They were just kids. But they were armed and in possession of a bullet proof vest and other items taken from inside the home briefly.

Recently another home in the same area was broken into by more teens who were really young adults. Unfortunately for them, no one was home the alarm system tripped and alerted LEO's

As luck would have it there was a dozen police each with a K9 conducting training a few moments run in a nearby park in the same area. These kids were buried in dogs and captured.

Around christmas eve I think a home was broken into, shots were fired. Perp staggers out past the yard into the street and died of his wounds right there.

A home was fired upon down town by a carload of people seeking retailiation for a problem against the hoem owner. Unfortunately the homeonwner was not home, the house wife was shot dead over her kitchen stove while cooking dinner for many children in the home.

and so on...

Nothing is the same. Everything is different.
 
If you're ever really in this situation just call the cops, close and lock your bedroom door, get some cover (the bed will do), and then KILL THE LIGHTS.
My bedroom door wouldn't slow down a Keebler elf with muscular dystrophy.

I tire of "experts" who know the solutions to your tactical problems without having the slightest idea of your tactical situation.

Some of these people would recommend taking Monte Cassino by an amphibious landing because they heard from their friend's cousin's illegitimate half-brother-in-law that it worked really well at Gallipoli.
 
Some people live all thier lives peacefully without a single incident or problem with home invasions. Amazing stuff.
 
Sound advice is to NOT shoot through doors and walls at what you think is a bad guy.

“Simulations” I would like a bit more info on them before I pass judgment. Like who the “we” are and how they were run that caused the conclusion that shooting through doors and wall will improve you chance of survival. (I like published facts that can be repeated and debated also I’m skeptical by nature)

Saving Private Ryan is a movie and not reality. Right, wrong or otherwise things that happen in movies often does not translate into real world tactics.

I have a similar issue to Neocode, I have children so the stay put and shoot through wall is just not going to work. I have no choice but to go to the children but the layout of my house is a cape cod as soon as I exit my bedroom and I’m in the middle of the house and chances are I’ll be face to face with the bad guy. I have to plan for that with things like make my house a hard target, hard to get into and early warning. But I also have to be ready for once they are inside. I have and use a weapon light on my gun, I know it can give away my position but my house is never total dark (nightlights that also go on when the power goes out) and I need to see who is there.

Note my signature.
 
Thank you Mr Mana! Two for me and the wife since the election is in there somewhere in that stack.

Now we are three weapons and maybe one more in the next two years.

Not that I see that our budget shortage went from 550 billion to something like 1.9 trillion deficit for september of this year.

Yeap, Guns are good. Long live the USA.
 
As for identification in a REAL combat situation identification is easy; anyone who isn't YOU is the [] enemy - don't forget it.

This is "expert" advice?
 
Dinopoker, welcome to THR. I'm glad you have come up with a plan for yourself in a home defense sitiation. However, I question some of your statements.

You give no considerations to spouse, kids, roommates, pets, live-in relatives, etc. If you live alone, that's fine.

When we ran simulations on this those that shot through the door or wall had a better chance of surviving than those who didn't...

More information about who ran the simulations and in what conditions would be helpful. How was survivability deteremined?

In the scenario I described, if you wait for the person to enter and be identified, there is a greater chance that gunfire will be EXCHANGED, and thereby that members of the defensive party will get hit.

Ture, but by identifing your target there is a lesser chance that you will shoot someone that you don't want to shoot (family member, roommate, stupid drunk friend that knows where you hide your key, etc.).

That scenario was kind of shown in the movie Saving Private Ryan...

WWII and home defense. Apples and oranges.

As far as weapon selection goes, a double-barreled shotgun would be just as good (and cheaper) because they really don't take that long to load and if you're in the above described scenario and you really need more than two shots, it's probably because you're dead.

I don't know where you shop, but the highest priced shotguns that I have seen were always double-barrels. While a double-barrels might look more formidable, I'd rather have the 5+ shots of a good pump. Do you really believe you don't need more than 2 shots for a gunfight? You might want to do a little research on actual gun fights.

Most people don't look after their guns properly

If you have statistics to support that, please share. I, myself, have a hard time believing that 51% or more of the gun owners in the US don't take care of them.

As for identification in a REAL combat situation identification is easy; anyone who isn't YOU is the [] enemy

My wife isn't me, but she is not the enemy.

Like I said, I'm glad you are giving home defense some serious thought. But don't stop now. It's not the kind of thing that you can develop over a weekend. It takes time to consider all of the likely possibilities. And whatever plan you come up with needs to be flexible. Because things never happen the way you expect them to.
 
Original Poster: Your expert advice is strewn with rediculous assertions that can get you killed or sued. I'd warn you that anything you post can be used at a later time against you. You have now stated that you will shoot an unidentified target not knowing if they have the intent or ability to kill you. Good luck now Rambo.

Most people don't look after their guns properly and revolvers are pretty much guaranteed to fire no matter what.

I've had 2 revolvers break on me. None of my pistols have. You ever seen how many parts are in a revolver?
 
get some cover (the bed will do)

I would not recommend utilizing a bed for cover. What have you added to it to make it stop bullets?

If someone sounds like they're really outside your door call out a really loud warning that the police are on the way and if you don't hear them running off just let them have it right through the door

I'd rather not give away my location in the house, or even in a given room if it's all the same to you. It sounds like your "simulation" did an excellent job of making the guy pause outside the door in such a way as to make the occupants inside know he was there, and for long enough for a warning to be shouted and a response to be used. How do you do that in the real world, considering that most bedroom doors in America could be kicked in by my 10 year old niece? Suppose the perp pauses and knocks politely (or makes some other noise to let you know he's there). You shout the warning. He steps away, but he hasn't left the house yet and you don't know that. Or he does leave the house, and the next noise outside the door is a cop rushing in to see if you're okay. I hope that's a trigger pull you can live with, cause it's not one I'll be making.

(be sure to aim low - panic situations tend to make people miss high)

I've heard of rounds climbing higher on FA weapons, or even on repeaters where multiple shots are fired. What's your source on aiming low with the first shot?

If he has a friend who still wants to play wait until that guy makes it to the same doorway and then let him have it too.

I'm a drugged up perp, and I'm dumb, but I'm not dumb enough to approach the doorway that has buck shot flying through it, despite my sense of longing for knowledge and curiosity about the world. How, may I ask, did you know there were 2 in the first place?

At this point just reload and stay put.

Hey, we have a winner.

Do not go and investigate - wait for the cops, or tell the 911 operator what just happened.

If we've deduced that there's another bg in the house, and we know the typical police response time in our area is going to be a while, what would you suggest telling our children when they ask why we didn't come for them (assuming they're still alive or around to ask us that after the fact)?

If you hear one of the dudes moving around or something just order him to lie still or you'll fire again. By now he'll probably believe you.

If he's still in a house after one of the members of the household shot his buddy, he's a hardcore, determined threat, and one would do well to treat him as such.

When we ran simulations on this

Please elaborate. 5W's, or an AAR would be good.

the enemy was at fairly large disadvantage by being in a known position whereas the homeowner's was still unknown.

So which is it? Did you shout a warning (thereby revealing your position), or was the homeowner's position unknown?

Obviously this brings into possibility that the person on the other side of the door is just some random drunk or something, but that is a consideration for after the gunfight - not during!

Is that what you intend to say in court after killing one of your own family members, or a responding cop, medic, or concerned neighbor? To clarify: Are you seriously advocating shoot first [at an unknown target] and ask questions later?

Draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is that I'd like to know where you got your training so that I can eschew that school/instructors.

They had a tactical advantage so they used it.

They didn't have a tactical advantage. They had a script, a director, prop guys, and a foley artist.

Same goes for revolver vs. semiauto. Most people don't look after their guns properly and revolvers are pretty much guaranteed to fire no matter what. Most people also leave their guns loaded, or the magazines loaded for sure, and a lot of people swear that leaving them loaded like this wears out the spring and can cause a jam. Glock insists that's not true and I happen to think they make a fine product but that isn't the case with a lot of manufacturers and, again, the one time it doesn't work is the time you're dead. (Glock's also have a tricky trigger imo.)

How many revolvers do you own? How many shotguns? How many Glocks?

As for identification in a REAL combat situation identification is easy; anyone who isn't YOU is the [] enemy - don't forget it.

How much COD 4 did you play to arrive at that conclusion?
 
God bless the internet.

OP-You realize someone here just MIGHT follow your advice, which could have some awful consequences. Beds are NOT cover. You don't want to shoot through walls in an SD scenario. This is simply awful advice, and it's not expert by any stretch.
 
it worked really well at Gallipoli.

The assault at Gallipoli ( Australia regards it as we do the Alamo) wasn't amphibious it was a series of bayonet charges against entrenched machine guns, with predictable results.

I doubt very seriously that our XBox war hero will return.
 
Remember, it's home defense, not offense. If you're ever really in this situation just call the cops, close and lock your bedroom door, get some cover (the bed will do),

I got this far... have you ever shot through a mattress? I have... it is concealment at best, NOT cover.

If the experts are over here I am waaaaay over here, but... I have learned a ton by coming to THR on a regular basis. I have also made a fool of myself here. It happens.

Glad you are here, and do not believe everything you read.

Leroy
 
What do you guys mean.... I have seen my son use those tactics many times with great success and without a single lawyer being needed.... in his video games.... which is probably where this poster learned his "tactics"....

Anyone who shoots at an unknown target is guilty of being stupid if nothing else... I'd rather die in my home after being tortured than to kill an innocent person, such as the mailman, my neighbor, or the cops responding to my call..... maybe it's just me.... but yeah, I'd rather be dead than to face the courts/prison and the guilt of having acted like an irrational moron and ended up killing an innocent person.... for that reason, I don't act like an irrational moron....

PS- far and away most people who aren't me, aren't the enemy either... given those odds, I will identify the 'enemy' first, rather than shooting blindly at anything that makes a sound...

My advice is coming from someone who is not an expert, but who has survived a home invasion that required a firearm being employed to settle the issue.... never even went to court over it... well, except to testify against the BG.....

The police who arrived tried to find ANY evidence they could that I was careless with my firearm... even going so far as to say that if they found a bullet lodged in a car down the street, they would be back to arrest me.... I certainly would have spent at least one night in jail (perhaps ended up in prison) had I just shot indiscriminately.... which is as it should be,.....
 
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So, what have we learned?

Don't shoot blindly through walls, doors, etc. Remember, those guys in Saving Private Ryan who shot through the walls ended up gettin’ killed by the guys they shot at.

After announcing that you have called the police and have a gun, keep quiet so as not to give up any advantage you have.

Double-barreled shotguns do take longer to reload than a semi-auto.

People on this site are not like most people. These folks care for their guns properly and know how to clean them. In fact, for some, it is a cross between a science and an art form.
 
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