Exploiting The Dead

[JJNA]

Here's some perspective and historical context about the 2,000 American military deaths in Iraq:

http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-10_27_05_JN.html

For World War I, over 6,100 per month.
For World War II, over 9,200 per month.
In Korea, over 900 killed-in-action each month (non-battle death information is not available).
For Vietnam, over 600 per month.
For Gulf War I, almost 300 in one month.

The first Gulf War was noted for its remarkably low casualty rate. Some even observed that the death rate for the deployed American military personnel was lower than that during peacetime, making it "safer to be at war than at home."

In comparison, an average of 63 died each month in the current war.

It is an updated version of what I wrote last year.

 

[Beethoven]

We'll soon reach a total of 2,000 dead American troops in Iraq. You won't miss the day it happens. The media will pound it into you.

It was a HUGE headline in my local rag; huge font and everything.

It was absolutely sickening.

I still need to write them a nasty letter.

 

[Marshall]

I wonder why I read this forum, I end up getting so worked up.

I look at it this way, if you think we didn't have a reason to go to war or if you think we did, it makes no difference now. Pulling out is not an option and would be a disgrace. It would be equivalent to allowing the terrorist and left wingers to defeat us. It's not an option.

Besides, I don't have a problem with picking a fight with someone that we can clearly see is intent on doing us harm directly or indirectly. Cutting off a snakes head before he strikes is not a problem with me. It's smart for us to be in Iraq, it's smart for a democracy to begin there, it's smart to be fighting over there instead of here and it's smart to be getting help from Iraqis instead of battling on our own or with non Arabic allies. Tactically, we need a friendly place in the middle east along with getting one less hostile place. If we can be strong enough to withstand the media bashing and left trashing, we'll be in good shape.

You guys and girls that have fought or are fighting over there, God bless you. You are performing an extremely worthwhile duty and one that is furthering the safety of the USA as well as providing a better future for us. Thank you! Don't listen to the naysayers and never question your duties worth, it's priceless.

 

[Tokugawa]

All this is going to be a moot point when the first mushroom cloud rises over Manhattan or Seattle. I despise the traditional "left", they have no capacity to think ahead. I have never meet a leftist who liked science fiction and history. Requires too much brain-stretching. Either they cannot see that we are in a long term fight for our lives, or they want to see us lose. The difference between a IED in Iraq and a 20 kiloton blast in Houston is a matter of opportunity and availability, nothing more.

 

[280PLUS]

You guys and girls that have fought or are fighting over there, God bless you. You are performing an extremely worthwhile duty and one that is furthering the safety of the USA as well as providing a better future for us. Thank you! Don't listen to the naysayers and never question your duties worth, it's priceless.

All I can add is: +1

 

[DRZinn]

everybody dies but few get to do it for something as important as freedom. It may seem confusing why we are in Iraq, it's not to me. I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live. Not have to worry about tyrants or vicious dictators. To do what they want with their lives. To me that is why I died. Others have died for my freedom, now this is my mark.

That brings a tear to my eye.

 

[tater_salad]

The difference between a IED in Iraq and a 20 kiloton blast in Houston is a matter of opportunity and availability, nothing more.

+1

 

[Ezekiel]

I don't have a problem with picking a fight with someone that we can clearly see is intent on doing us harm directly or indirectly.

So you approve of annexing Mexico?

Picking a fight verses perceived intent. Somehow, that bothers me. Isn't that the same theory used against gun-toters in the United States? (i.e., "He likes guns? Well, what does he intend to do with them? Shoot them?" He shouldn't have them...)

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be much support for the "intent theory" as applied to gun ownership, merely WMD's: which apparently were not in Iraq in the first place...:banghead:

I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live.

Well, this is better, if somewhat utopian and moralistic -- but I'll bite.

How many American lives and how much $$$ are worth this? Do folks truly believe this is why our President got us involved? This idea worked out so well in Korea and Vietnam, right?

For World War I, over 6,100 per month.
For World War II, over 9,200 per month.
In Korea, over 900 killed-in-action each month
For Vietnam, over 600 per month.
For Gulf War I, almost 300 in one month.
For Gulf War II, 63 per month.

Note: quote above slightly modified. Content (numbers) is same.

How are the deaths quantified and qualified? Where's the WIA information? (Medical treatment has improved greatly in recent decades and the percentages of WIA verses KIA have changed dramatically.) What about the duration of each conflict leading to an overall total? The rate is important, but it is merely one view.

Exploiting the Dead? (Going back to the thread.) Frankly, I'm more concerned about Exploiting the Living, as I doubt the "dead guy" cares.

 

[NavyDoc]

Picking a fight verses perceived intent. Somehow, that bothers me. Isn't that the same theory used against gun-toters in the United States? (i.e., "He likes guns? Well, what does he intend to do with them? Shoot them?" He shouldn't have them...)

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be much support for the "intent theory" as applied to gun ownership, merely WMD's: which apparently were not in Iraq in the first place...:banghead:


Exploiting the Dead? (Going back to the thread.) Frankly, I'm more concerned about Exploiting the Living, as I doubt the "dead guy" cares.

Nonsensical comparison....To say (like the gun grabbers) that I have intent to commit a crime simply because I own a gun is nonsense....If I say (like all of the M.E.) that I will kill you as soon as I get a gun and have the means, then intent is rather obvious...unless you'd rather wait for the next attack on American soil.



I'm concerned with the dead and the living. Your callous disregard for the dead leads one to believe that you don't think much of us living servicepeople either.

 

[TallPine]

if you think we didn't have a reason to go to war or if you think we did, it makes no difference now.

Right or wrong makes no difference...? Interesting outlook.

Pulling out is not an option and would be a disgrace.

Why? Haven't we gotten rid of Saddam, and "eliminated" the [non-existent] WMD? (I'll suppose we honestly believed the WMDs did exist - mistakes happen)

How long to we have to "parent" the Iraqis? Until they agree to a govt that we like?????

Your callous disregard for the dead leads one to believe that you don't think much of us living servicepeople either.

That wasn't directed (directly) at me, but as for me... my wish is that no more of our servicepeople will be harmed.

 

[Ezekiel]

(like all of the M.E.)

That's a pretty wide swath. Please be careful when swinging that Crusading sword of self-righteousness: you might hit someone our government defines as an ally!

Your callous disregard for the dead leads one to believe that you don't think much of us living servicepeople either.

(Sigh) I said the "dead guy" would no longer care -- which is true, ask him! -- not that I didn't.

unless you'd rather wait for the next attack on American soil.

As opposed to invading 3rd-world dictatorships that neither had WMD's or directly supported your 9/11 Holy Grail? Yeah, "I'll wait." Again, getting back to the thread, I have no issues with keeping very, very accurate count of how many lives this blunder has cost.

"Enjoy watching this administration -- and its fictitious war -- go down in flames." This is all going to get very nasty...

 

[NavyDoc]

Actually, I'm still a bit miffed about your previous post in which you, in essense, said to shut up about concern for dead servicemen and, had the tone of,"F-them, they are volunteers and mindless automatons of destruction."

If you stick with a big, we shouldn't have been there in the first place type comment, you would have my agreement...who cares if one dictator invades another. The issue is that we did become involved...at the bequest of the much-vaunted "international community," and, having become involved, did not finish the job also at the request of the much lauded "international community."
Iraq signed a ceasefire agreement wich it then violated three ways to sunday. It is then legal, and appropriate, to resume hostilities against a nation that violates said treaty. That treaty included no fly zones. When they fired on our flyers they violated that treaty and resumtion of hostilities was appropriate.
As for WMD's....c'mon..they are in Syria.

We have found:
Artillary shells with mustard gas.
Mirage fighters buried in the deasert.
Suitcases with vials of nerve agent in Fallujah.
Mobile labs.

I don't like war...I've been in combat: it's not nice, or fun. I'd rather be at home with my kids. However, what we are doing overseas are keeping you and yours safe at home.

The protected rarely appreciate the protectors.

As for your, sarcastically put and unnecessarily confrontational referances to the crusades and my "9/11 Holy Grail" (That doesn't fit...the Mythical Holy Grail was a good thing that provided eternal life. Perhaps you really ment to compaire me to the mythical Sir Percival of the round table....ever in persuit of a beast that does not exist)( See MD's can be classically educated, how about MBAs?), I've been there, I've experienced the dust, sweat, and blood. You?

 

[javafiend]

If the USA is going to set ourselves up as the world’s police force

And there's the problem. The fedgov wants to set itself up as GloboCop - and wants us to pay for it all. No thanks, I have better things to do with my hard-earned income that help the feds get their Empire on. Cost of the Iraq War to date is $216,712,896,941.

All this crap started with the left in Vietnam.

Another war that the US gov lied us into.
Classified article questions Vietnam War buildup rationale
By The Associated Press
11.02.05

"National Security Agency officers mistranslated interceptions involving the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, and their mistake was covered up by deliberate falsifications, says a researcher trying to obtain an article that lays out what happened.

"Now, says researcher Matthew Aid, the NSA is blocking release of the article, by an NSA historian, about the incident that led to a massive U.S. buildup in Vietnam by President Lyndon B. Johnson with the near-unanimous backing of Congress."

More lies, cover-ups, and perverted use of intel to manipulate the American people into supporting an open-ended war in a far-off region. Sound the least bit familiar, Kim?

Do you see how the mainstream media covers this? Last week when the Iraqi's voted on a constitution, how much did the mainstream media cover that?

Those sneaky leftwing journalists hid the story on the front page of The New York Times!
IRAQI OFFICIALS DECLARE CHARTER HAS BEEN PASSED

"Iraqi electoral officials officially announced Tuesday that voters had passed a new constitution, paving the way for parliamentary elections in December. But the constitution narrowly escaped defeat, as Sunni Arabs turned out in large numbers to vote against it. The electoral commission said that although 79 percent of voters..."

How dare they bury such an important story on the front page above the fold of the nation's premier newspaper! What will these dastardly lib'rals think of next?

Though I opposed the conquest of Iraq, I think the occupation should continue until the job is done.

Wait a moment, wasn't the mission accomplished already? Or was that episode just another Bush lie? Exactly how many times have we "turned the corner" in the war against the Iraqi insurgents? Next you'll be telling us that there's "light at the end of the tunnel."

They need support, weather or not you agree does not matter...

The weather here is actually pretty nice. How's the weather where you are?

I'm talking about actively seeking to undermine support for the war by misrepresenting & distorting the facts. In short, lying about the situation in Vietnam, and now Iraq.

The US fedgov systematically lied about the "situation" in Vietnam. Have you read about the Pentagon papers? Turns out that anti-war critics were saying in public what presidential advisors and intelligence professionals were telling the president in private.

I have friends currently living and working in Iraq as telecom contractors. They both tell me that Iraq is generally peaceful and safe.

Safe? You can't even drive from the US embassy to the airport because the highway is so dangerous.
Did you see today's New York Times?

U.S. to Intensify "Its Training in Iraq to Battle Insurgents
Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top American commander in Iraq, is so concerned that the military's counterinsurgency training must be sharpened in the face of increasingly flexible and deadly attackers that he has ordered the formation of a new school in Iraq for officers, according to senior military officials."

"At least 92 Americans were killed in Iraq in October, the highest monthly toll since January."

Meanwhile, Bush tells us that "we" need to make more sacrificies for the Iraq war.

Claire Wolfe is ever the astute observer. "By 'we' I take it he doesn't mean anybody in his social circle or anybody on the board of Halliburton. Think tankers are also exempted, of course. As are lawyers who write memos authorizing torture. Senators and congressthings, of course, don't need to sac ...Hey, wait a minute. Who is this 'we,' anyhow?"

How many more servicemen are you hawks prepared to sacrifice on the alter of the Iraq War?

They tell me that the Iraqi population generally hates the terrorists. They don't like the fact that the American military is needed in their home country (who would?), but they recognize its necessity and appreciate the sacrifices our soldiers make.

Oh really?


"Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troopsMillions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers has revealed.

"The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country."

How are we doing in Afganistan??

It's opium-planting time and business is booming for Afghanistan's dealers

The same idiots who organize (I don't deny that there may be some sincere "Usefull Idiots"-as Marx would call them--

There's no evidence that Marx (or Lenin) ever used the term "useful idiots."

The anti-war left is treasonous.

What do you think of Iraq Veterans Against the War?

I'm statiioned near DC, and I've seen protests full of Palistinian and Iraqi flags.

Horrors! How did you manage to endure such trauma?

Not everyone that opposes the war against Iraq is part of the "Left." Like Ron Paul, for instance.

And the Pope, and former generals (General Odom) and former intelligence officers (John Stockwell). But the writer of the original article doesn't have the balls to engage their arguments, so he constructs a strawman.

I can certainly see how someone would consider this to be treasonous.

So idle talk now is treasonous?

Then the faithful opposition whether it be Democrats, Libertarians or whatever better get a message and a plan.

US out now.

We used to have a policy that politics stopped at the waters edge.

Nonsense, we never did. And I'll make you a deal. Politics will stop at the waters' edge when my government's interventionist policies stop at the waters' edge.

Their support among the Iraqi people isn't such that they could control much of the country.

Guerilla warfare is not really about controlling much of the country. You're a veteran; you know this, right?

Ring up the despots in the middle east who point at us as the reason their children are hungry and they have no standard of living and ask them to please treat their people nice and stop blaming us for their incompetance? Oh I know, we could send them a strongly worded letter, perhaps sue them for defamation of charactor in the World Court?

Here's an idea: stop suppotring tyrannies. Stop sending them money. Stop training their police and militaries. Stop overthrowing elected goverments in favor in favor of dictatorships.

It doesn't matter if you like the fact that we occasionally dip our toes into the waters of global policing.

Occasionally? It's a little more than that. Read Killing Hope : U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II-Updated Through 2003.

I still need to write them a nasty letter.

For covering the fact that 2000 servicemen have been killed? How terrible of them to report this fact.

it's smart to be fighting over there instead of here

What an incredibly stupid argument. Spain and Britain both sent troops to Iraq; both countries suffered terrorist attacks home afterwards.

 

[Ezekiel]

the Mythical Holy Grail was a good thing that provided eternal life

Perhaps, but the metaphorical quest lead directly to many deaths: quite similar to a pitched and single-minded knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. Or, were you referring to a different attack on U.S. soil that is supposedly being "prevented" by invading a soverign nation that had no direct relationship with the event?

The protected rarely appreciate the protectors.

Actually, I'm more stuck on this quote. Very nice! I love Orwellian references. Remind me to get you one of this "War is Peace" bumper stickers shown earlier in the thread: it seems quite fitting. If "this" (rampant Imperialism run amok at the behest of cronyism) is protection? No, I'm not terribly appreciative.

As for WMD's....c'mon..they are in Syria.

Then why didn't we invade Syria. Not enough oil? (Merely a thought.)

However, what we are doing overseas are keeping you and yours safe at home.

That propoganda is rather difficult to prove, don't you think? You don't think there could be any number of politically mandated "other reasons" why we are in Iraq? Considering that, even locating the "shells, mustard, gas and mobile labs" you describe, an actual delivery system was not discovered? Well, unless you count those obsolete Mirage day fighters found languishing in the desert.

I've been there, I've experienced the dust, sweat, and blood. You?

No: I am not masochistic enough to voluntarily subject myself to the whims of politicians. (Fortunately, that hinders my rights, citizenship or opinions not at all.)

 

[DRZinn]

Safe? You can't even drive from the US embassy to the airport because the highway is so dangerous.

A small region around the capitol is pretty dangerous. The rest of the country is safe. In Kut, where I was, we didn't even have the doors on our hummers. And that was traveling with the Battalion Commander, the provincial governor at the time and a pretty high-value target. We were out on the street most of every day, completely exposed. ONE TIME, someone threw a few grenades at us from over a wall while the BC was in a meeting. No casualties, and that's it.

 

[GoRon]

Why don't you brilliant leftists or whatever you call yourselves get a plan, present it to the people of the US and get some of your "enlightened" leaders elected to office?

Why? Because you are a fringe bunch that couldn't govern yourselves out of a paper bag.

The market and free elections has made sure extremists of your ilk rarely are in positions of authority.

Your crocodile tears for the troops fool no one except the dupes who believe as you do.

 

[280PLUS]

All else aside, what would you naysayers like us to do instead? Sit around and wait for another massive attack? Where would YOU start protecting this country? IIRC Iraq had been in violation of the Gulf War treaty for many a year. IMHO We should have jumped right back in there when Saddam started restricting the movements of U.N inspectors again. I for one, wonder what took so LONG? Bill too busy getting his weenie wet in the oval office? Iraq seems like a good place to start to me. And if being there is drawing these cockroaches out of the woodwork so we can eliminate them, so much the better. We can't leave Iraq until we're damn sure these "radicals" can't regain power by intimidation once we're gone. Do I want all these kids to get maimed for life or killed outright. of course not. But I accept the necessity of them doing so. And from every indication I have seen. So do they. And as previously posted, God bless every one of them, for theirs is the good fight.

 

[C.S.Powell]

For the priviledge of having those rights you better thank a VETERAN, THEY SURE CAME AT A HIGH PRICE!




No: I am not masochistic enough to voluntarily subject myself to the whims of politicians. (Fortunately, that hinders my rights, citizenship or opinions not at all.)[/QUOTE]

 

[Joey2]

I am against this war and the last Gulf War. My son is leaving in Jan.06 for his FOURTH tour in Iraq. He is a career Marine and believes the BS about our being there.

For those of you who are for this war any other war we have been BS'd to participate in I would like to have you have the opportunity to visit a Battalion Aid Station(BAS)espically the Triage area. The smell will stay with you along with the men who know they are going to die. There is no glory, it stinks!

 

[Ezekiel]

Iraq seems like a good place to start to me.

To start what? Which is, of course, the issue.

"Imperialism sucks."

 

[GoRon]

To start what?

Our response to terrorism.

The whole region is guilty of supporting or ignoring terrorism against the US and Israel.

It was a brilliant strategic move.

Iraq if you haven't noticed has some interesting countries on its borders. Good central location to have a democratic free ally.

The Iraqi's aren't stupid. They know that the US bases in europe helped protect europe from the USSR. They will allow us to protect them and use their country to project our power in the region if anyone dares f**k with us again.

It is good to be an ally of the US and it sucks to be our enemy.

 

[Combat-wombat]

http://newamericancentury.org/

Read the "Statement of Principles" and the signatures...

Basically a website setup by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney and a bunch of other people of political and economic significance, laying out their plans. If you're looking for the Republican's "evil plan", this is pretty much it in it's purest form-

What they want:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

This organization was founded in 1997, way before 9/11. Tell me 9/11 wasn't just a convenience that helped them push their agenda. Furthermore, if you download their "Rebuilding America's Defenses" PDF file (Released September 2000), you'll note that on page 51 (under "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force") there's this:

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

Keep in mind this is an entire year before 9/11.

It's pretty obvious to me this war has little to do with terror.

 

[Kim]

Combat----------What is there that you object to. Lets see this is a think tank of individuals who where thinking in the late 1990's. What were they thinking about. Lets see the security of the USA. Why? Well maybe that is what they are interested in instead of lets say expanding Medicare or Saving the rain forest. Now why is it so bad we have these people thinking of such things. Lets see terrorism had been going on in the 1990's. How many times did the US get hit and how many had died. Oh yea don't forget even happened in the US with that first Trade Center Bombing. And guess what. This was such a secret group of war planners why they even had their evil plans published on a public web site. Yea this is what the DU dummies see as a great cabal of evil NEO CONS (code for JOOOOESSSSSSS) . Why they are aganist the liberation of the Brown PEOPLES of the middle east from Israel and the Imperalist Capitalist Satan known as the USA. Yes evil in our own country.BOO!!!!!!!!!:banghead: Don't leave out the EVIL CORPORATION Halliburton Cheney did it for money remember. After all there has to be an evil corporation in the deal so they can twist it all into a NAZI plot to takeover the country. After all NASISM AND FASCISM is a leftist I mean American right wing ideology. Get a grip and take off the foil hat.

 

[280PLUS]

Ok, I'm STILL waiting for a better plan...

9/11 wasn't a convenience, it was a culmination. Where were you when the Marine Barracks was hit in '82? Stephen Tingley was there. He's not with us anymore as a result. I watched his HS best friend suffer the consequences of his loss first hand.

Let's look in another direction, have you noticed, at all, how certain other rogue countries have stepped back from their anti American activities? Cuba OFFERING US ASSISTANCE AFTER KATRINA (I say the better choice would have been to accept), Libya, Syria pulling out of Beirut, Iran opening up it's borders and allowing inspections, North Korea adjusting their tune just to name a few. WHY do you think this is taking place? MAYBE they are starting to recognize that even IF our Gov was being a paper tiger at one time, they're not anymore. IMHO they're afraid they might be NEXT and after seeing what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq want no part of it. Don't try to hand me that's it's all just Imperialist motivations. When the job is truly finished in Iraq, I will be MORE than happy for our kids to leave that place and come home. War is evil and I despise it but if THIS country is to survive, war is a NECESSARY evil. I only regret that my physical limitations prevent me from joining the effort.

 

[NavyDoc]

Ezekiel: Nice! A post from you that was almost polite! I imagine that we would probably agree rather than disagree on most things. Let's put the Iraqi war aside for a moment...my only real issue with you is a tone of derision towards the military that seems to permeate your posts. Saying "shut up" and "get a grip" to a physician who expresses concern over the dead and wounded Marines that he works on would, I'm sure you can understand, get that military physician's dander up.
Or this one,"No: I am not masochistic enough to voluntarily subject myself to the whims of politicians. (Fortunately, that hinders my rights, citizenship or opinions not at all.)"
I've always been rather annoyed by those who enjoy the fruits of a free society, but somehow look down upon those people in uniform who volunteer to "stand on the wall" as it were, and defend that free society. Your profile indicates that you have an MBA and are quite the capitalist. Excellent! I love capitalism. However, I would hope that such a rabid capitalist of yourself would have a bit more respect for those who serve to help protect our free, capitalistic society. I'm not saying that the Iraq war is doing that per se, but rather I'm making a point on the military in general. If I missed your point, my apologies. I hope you can understand why I'm touchy on this particular subject.
Like Orwell do you? Excellent. Although a Fabian Socialist (A brand of British Marxism named after Fabius, the famous Roman general which opposed Hannibal as they were "biding their time" until they would "strike hard". Exactly when this strike would occur was a perennial question. Eschewing the revolutionary tactics of more orthodox Marxians, the middle-class Fabians were more directly involved with politics and practical gains - through contacts not only in the "International Labor Party", trade unions and cooperative movements but also throughout the entire British political apparatus (Liberals and Tories included) ) Orwell is one of my favorite writers...very insightfull. Here's one for you," Men sleep peacefully at night in their beds because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf."

As for the anti-war protestors: again, I've really no issue with protesting the war itself. Many conservatives and libertarians don't think we should be the world's police force (myself included) and would state that pretty much every conflict we have become involved in since WWII was inapproprate and unconstitutional. If you hold that consistant belief, then I'd say you were intellectually honest, however, the anti-war protests I've seen seem not to have an issue with all war, just America winning any war. Where were they during Somalia? Bosnia?
As for the original intent of the thread, I stand by my original opinion. These people, for the most part (in my experience) seem to be the same people who dislike the military and their emotional appeals for "saving our boys" really do ring hollow to me. Anti America, Anti Capitalist, Marxist, Anti Military, and anti-soap seems to be the general themes of the protests I've witnessed. (I like to go see things for myself and do so as often as I can.)
Like you, I do enjoy a good bout of mental masturbation. It's why I'm on boards like this!







JavaFiend:

I'm sorry....it was Lenin, from a speech delivered at a
meeting of activists of the Moscow organization of the r.c.p.(b.)
December 6, 1920, from V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, 4th English
Edition, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1966
Usefull idiots was one of the many translations (also "utter simpletons"), but it seems that this one just stuck...perhaps 'cause it makes such a nice soundbite and makes qa very valid point.

"What do you think of Iraq Veterans Against the War?"

I despise deserters. That site supports and lauds deserters. This is a volunteer military. Don't want to serve? Then don't. Don't swear an oath and sign a contract and then break both the oath and the contract if things don't go your way. That site has links to the usual suspects: Kent State, Peace Out, Conscientious Objectors.us, Project Guerrero Azteca, UICEF, OXFAM, Vietnam Veterans Against the War. What do I think? Leftist deserters!

"Quote:
I'm statiioned near DC, and I've seen protests full of Palistinian and Iraqi flags.


Horrors! How did you manage to endure such trauma?"

Ah...condescension and sarcasm. Ever hear of the term,"polite debate?" Perhaps personal insults are your typical method of discourse.
I had not trauma, trust me, I've seen my share of trauma. I was using that as an example to illustrate that the protests were not just against the war, but rather supporting the enemies of the US and capitalism...get it?

"Here's an idea: stop suppotring tyrannies. Stop sending them money. Stop training their police and militaries. Stop overthrowing elected goverments in favor in favor of dictatorships. "

I agree with you 100% Did you protest Nationbuilding in Haiti? Bosnia? If so, good! Consistency!

"Quote:
it's smart to be fighting over there instead of here


What an incredibly stupid argument. Spain and Britain both sent troops to Iraq; both countries suffered terrorist attacks home afterwards."

Actually it's a good argument. Sun Tzu tells us that it is much better to fight the enemy on his own ground. Just because a technique is not 100% effective does not make it an invalid technique. Islamic extremists are flocking to Iraq...and dying...better there than here.



Joey2:
"For those of you who are for this war any other war we have been BS'd to participate in I would like to have you have the opportunity to visit a Battalion Aid Station(BAS)espically the Triage area. The smell will stay with you along with the men who know they are going to die. There is no glory, it stinks!"

I've actually RUN a batallion aide station. I've been there. Was it Grant who said,"War is Hell." He is so very right. Unfortunately we live in a hostile world and sometimes war is a necessary evil. I'll be on my third deployment to that AO, and I hope I run into your son...healthy and enjoying a beer somewhere.
Semper Fi.

Edited to add this article about our "peace" protestors:


Molotov cocktail flies at anti-Bush rally in downtown San Francisco

Wednesday, November 2, 2005


Printable Version
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(11-02) 22:42 PST San Francisco (AP) --


The uniform of a San Francisco police officer caught fire after a Molotov cocktail was hurled at an anti-Bush protest Wednesday afternoon in downtown San Francisco.


A large crowd made its way from the Civic Center down Market Street, blocking traffic during the afternoon commute. Nine people were arrested for blocking traffic, said San Francisco police Commander David Shinn.


Shinn said the march was mostly peaceful except for the person who threw the Molotov cocktail.


"My partner and I are standing here monitoring the crowd and all of a sudden I heard glass breaking, and the bottle apparently hit right there and gasoline spilled and the next thing I know my shoulder is on fire," police officer Gary Constantine told television station KRON.


Police arrested a person who was found with Molotov cocktails, but were uncertain whether that person was the one who threw the explosive, Shinn said. Constantine was not injured.


Just when it looked like the protest was wrapping up in the evening, some protesters sat down in the middle of a busy intersection to block more traffic. The group refused police requests to disperse so they were arrested at the scene, according to police.


A large sign unfurled in front of City Hall read: "Bush step down. Take your whole program with you."