Extra-heavy 9mm bullets (180 gr.) - revisited

[Walkin' Softly]

I saw a dead thread here about the idea of loading 180-gr. bullets in 9x19mm cases. I thought I would stir up the embers with a slight re-imagining of the scenario, and get some opinions on it.

Recently I discovered the 165-gr. bullets that are available for 9mm, and read about the problems encountered with certain brands of brass with a high web that begins to contact these longer bullets, resulting in the case being bulged or the base of the bullet being mashed. But I have a unique "problem" that might actually turn into a solution to this situation, and maybe even allow loading up to 180-grain bullets (some Hornady XTPs might be nice...).

Years ago I bought some 9x21 brass for a project that never materialized. As you may know, 9x21 is loaded to the same overall length and performance specs as standard 9x19, but creates mutually exclusive firearms and ammunition for countries like Italy where civilians can't own guns in "military" calibers. I plan to buy a RIA .22 TCM conversion for my 1911, and in fact plan to build a dedicated frame with a 9mm/.38 Super ejector for that slide assembly. I'm a big .45 fan, but I figure there's no point in building a gun for .22 TCM without adding a 9mm barrel to shoot that caliber, too. But being used to heavy bullets, I want to push the 9mm envelope by creating a subsonic load to drive the heaviest slug possible.

So... how crazy would it be to have the barrel's 9mm chamber reamed to 9x21 depth and load the longer 180-gr. bullets to the overall dimensions of 9x23? The mags for 9x23 and .38 Super are the very same mags required for the .22 TCM, so that's a freebie. I already paid for the silly 9x21 brass, and it can be handloaded in standard 9mm dies. Plus, that configuration would make this semi-wildcat load virtually impossible to chamber in the wrong gun (in North America, at least). The higher neck should allow a good grip on that high-riding bullet, and might provide just enough volume for a safe subsonic load.

Have I provided a reasonable pattern for turning some oddball brass into a decent cartridge? Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Walkin' Softly]

I also recognize that some of the rifling might have to be reamed to ease chambering of that long bullet.

 

[Walkalong]

What would be the purpose of lobbing 180 Gr 9MM bullets at what would have to be a very slow velocity? What is the application?

 

[egd]

Guns,shooting,ammo,gear,....wait!...what? Now you're telling me there has to be a purpose?!? Aawww man.....

 

[Manny]

I hope you pursue this, it sounds like a very interesting project.

 

[Walkalong]

Now you're telling me there has to be a purpose?

There is always a thought in mind of what one wants to do.

Let's see if I have this right.

He has 9X21 brass he wants to use. He has 9MM 180 Gr bullets, or is interested in trying them. He figures by loading long he can get enough powder space to safely fire them a subsonic velocities. Maybe he can, and he wants to find out.

I'd start with a slow powder and see if it will get the bullets out of the barrel all the time. I would probably stay away from anything faster than about 3N37, Accurate 7 range. I'd likely start with AA #9.

 

[Walkin' Softly]

Thanks, guys. Very interested in trying your suggestions, Walkalong.

At the very least I should be able to load the 165-gr. bullets that are problematic with some brass. But yeah, I really want to see how heavy I can go, and how they'll behave. It's a Frankenstein's monster, but I have odd stuff I want to find a purpose for. Plus... I wanna. : )

 

[Walkin' Softly]

Another thought...

Would using a longer-than-standard barrel help in this situation? On the one hand, shooting .38/.357 bullets (.356" dia.) will be slightly tighter in the bore, and the reduced space left for powder will be a challenge. Conventional wisdom might say that a shorter barrel would make it easier for that little dab of powder to manage to puke the bullet out of the hole. But on the other hand, would a longer barrel (6" or even 7.5") give the slow-burning powder more time to generate higher velocity? Maybe turn a VERY subsonic bullet into a SLIGHTLY subsonic one...?

A long slide/barrel would also be beneficial to the .38 Super or 9x23 barrel that I could pair with the project.

 

[Walkalong]

Conventional wisdom might say that a shorter barrel would make it easier for that little dab of powder to manage to puke the bullet out of the hole.

Indeed!

But on the other hand, would a longer barrel (6" or even 7.5") give the slow-burning powder more time to generate higher velocity?

As with all loads, assuming they make it out. Then again, of there isn't enough powder for the journey, they could slow down too.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I bought 100 each of every 9mm bullet available from Bayou a while back, 115 to 160 grain. The 160's made some very very soft shooting yet reliable rounds.

 

[Jim Watson]

I used to shoot 9mm Miller Major; 9mm P 160 gr 1.27" OAL in Super magazines. It was a USPSA loophole to be able to use cheap 9mm brass at Major power factor 175. Mr Miller sold cast bullets with the lube groove way down near the base for long loading and loaned bullet customers a reamer to long throat the chamber.

So 9x21 180 might be feasible.
Before you start cutting steel, I suggest seating a 180 in a 9mm P - the cases are the same from 19mm back, right - and see if it will gauge. You will have to modify the gauge but that is cheaper than a barrel.

 

[Walkin' Softly]

Thanks for all of the responses!

I actually have a 9x21 barrel from a different gun (EAA Witness), but no gun. I can use it for testing the cartridge before I commit to buying a 9x21 1911 barrel or reaming one from a 9x19.