Extractors

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Jammer Six

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OK, let's just have it out once and for all.

I just broke the extractor in my milspec, which was, I believe, and Ed Brown, although I don't think it was a "Hardcore".

After a fast review of the posts here about extractors, it appears that the Real Deal these days is Cylider & Slide, but Brownell's doesn't sell C&S extractors.

So my question is what brand extractor is the one you guys like, and why?

'Tuner, if you were limited to Brownells, what would you buy?
 
Jammer- I first tried a Brown, and although it worked fine, it protruded out the back of the slide a little too much for my taste. So I next tried a Wilson HD and a Wilson "Bulletproof". They both worked great- one in a Colt Cmdr. and the other in an SA GI; they also fit better than the Brown from an aesthetic standpoint. :)
 
Broke it!

Howdy Jammer,

If I was limited to Brownells, I'd opt for the Hardcore extractor. I have
used Hardcore extractors for tens of thousands of rounds without having to so much as reset the tension on them.

There are a few things that'll break even a good extractor...one of the most common being the hook climbing/snapping over the rim in a push-feed instead of slipping under it in a controlled feed. Your gun can be doing that without your knowing it unless you know what to look for. Most commonly on the last round, with the usual cause being the mysterious missing dimple on the follower. The second most common cause is a weak mag spring.

Without the dimple, the last round can jump the follower in recoil. The round winds up ahead and or above where it should be...The slide pushes it ahead of the extractor with the hook leading the way...and when the slide goes to battery faster and harder because it doesn't have to work so hard at stripping the round...it forces the hook to snap over the rim. The
gun functions and all seems to be well until the hook snaps off. If this
is what's happening, a spring steel extractor would also have broken, though not so early.

Incorrect headspacing can break an extractor. So can the slide's dimensions from the slidestop slot to the back shoulder of the hook,
with the rim bearing against that shoulder...even a tiny bit...when the
pressure slams the case back into the breechface.

If the mag spring is weak, the push-feed can occur on the next-to-last round, or even earlier. if the slide is oversprung, it makes these things more likely to happen, and less likely to give a warning in the form of a
failure to return to battery with the extractor rammed against the rim.

The correct magazine spring rate is important. The dimple is important.
The correct recoil spring rate is important. The correct mainspring rate is important. All these things add up to make the pistol reliable...or they add in the other direction to make it choke. John Browning set these spring rates for a very good reason, and he put that dimple on the follower for a good reason too.

Details! we need more detail before we can diagnose what broke it.

Standin' by...

Tuner
 
Details! we need more detail before we can diagnose what broke it.
Click to expand...

OK, here's what I know.

The slide and barrel are still stock. I haven't checked them, but they're over 10,000 rounds, so I'm pretty sure they're OK.

The mags were Wilson 47's, (seven rounders, of course) with medium-old springs. The mag in question, as well as all eight mags I was using that day have several thousand rounds on them, with at least a few thousand through this weapon.

(I have four Wilson 47's on carry only duty, and eight on range only duty. The two classes never mix.)

They have the plastic followers, I don't know if you consider them dimpled or not.

The only thing I've changed recently out of your Holy Tripod is ammo. When the extractor broke, I was using American.
 
Irregardless of what Roy Huntington said in the latest American Handjobber,
AMERC ammo is trash!
Doubt if that caused the extractor to fail though.
 
Details

Jammer sez:

They have the plastic followers, I don't know if you consider them dimpled or not.
____________________

Not. They have a concave surface that lends a little control
over the last round...IF...the spring is good. If yours have thousands of rounds through them, the springs are bound to be getting a little tired.
Double whammy...

If the extractor is climbing over the rim during the feed/return to battery,
the extractor will fail prematurely, no matter what its made of or who made it. Bet on it.

I had a friend who used smooth follower magazines exclusively...including Mec-gars. He was a high-volume shooter and he was breaking an extractor a month...Good extractors...C&S extractors. He liked the 8-round magazines, and nothing would sway him from that line of thought.
"They work just fine!" As you wish, Kemo Sabe...

On his 5th or 6th broken extractor, he brought the gun to me to fit the extractor "right". I installed a tweaked C&S...and I kept his magazines.
I loaned him two of mine instead, and told him to go shoot the gun hard for
3 months. Three months later, his extractor was fine...didn't even need to be retensioned. I ordered 10 Metalform flat, dimpled 7-round followers,
10 Wolff 11-pound springs and rebuilt his magazines with the components.
that was 4 years ago, and he still has the same extractor in the gun. It
hasn't required further attention other than periodic removal for cleaning.

Several years ago, I picked up a little paperback written by Ken Hallock.
He advised the reader to file the dimples off the followers. I did it. I began to have extractor breakages and problems holding tension. Bein' a little quicker than the average dummy, I replaced the followers with new ones that had the dimple. My extractor problems disappeared.

John Moses put it there for a reason. Best leave it be...

Luck!

Tuner
 
Amerc Ammo

Chuck said:


AMERC ammo is trash!
Doubt if that caused the extractor to fail though.

Ay-GREED! Worst stuff I've ever seen. I won't even pick up the brass.

Another thing that will absolutely break an extractor double-quick is the
extractor groove in the case. If it's made so that the front of the hook
is bearing hard against it when the round is in the chamber, the case will
get rammed against the hook hard when the gun fires. Can anybody say...Snap, Crackle. Pop? If you can post a picture of a round of Amerc
so we can have a loot at the extractor groove...we may have just identified the cause of your bug.
 
Many years ago I studied 45 ACP case rims and found a wide variety of dimensions. I also noticed that there were many different shaped rims to boot. I think the "CCC" were a lot different than most. I agree that ammo could have something to do with extractor failures. I am a re-loader so I do not have much to do with "Factory Ammo".
 
Not. They have a concave surface that lends a little control
over the last round...IF...the spring is good. If yours have thousands of rounds through them, the springs are bound to be getting a little tired.
Click to expand...

Well...

If you say so.

But...

I said SEVEN-rounders.

They have a convex follower, not a concave follower. The eight rounders have the concave followers.

Is it still a "Not", or is the convex follower a bump?

Are Wilson 7-rounders, therefore, not of the 'Tuner annointed classes of magazines?

You're probably right, of course, about the springs. I probably need a complete rack of new springs.

I'll try to get some pictures of the American ammo up, and I'll take some measurements, to the best of my carpenter's ability, later tonight.

And THAT all said, I've been noticing some of the very failure-to-completely-return-to-battery stuff you've been talking about, and the explanation of the round not being under the hook makes perfect sense to me, and the amount that the slide didn't travel was just about that much.

It happened mostly when the weapon had gone six or seven hundred rounds in a day, and was dirty.

Small push, back in battery.

P.S. I have two Brown Hardcore extractors in the air from Brownell's now. I intend to break out the dremel and grind them down to your specs as soon as they get here. :D

P.P.S., (edit) If it's pushing the round in front of the extractor, how can I diagnose it? How can I rule this in or out? What should I look for, how can I test it?

If it's happening, I want to be sure to fix it!
 
Last edited:
Concave/Convex

Okay Jammer...I see that now. Whenever I see Wilson 47, I tend to automatically think.."47D" since 8-round, flush-fit mags are all the rage these days. I consider this class of magazines to be range/game only,
and not for serious purpose.

The top of that plastic follower is still pretty slippery, and when the springs go south, they'll let that last round slide forward too far, and the slide
knocks it straight toward the chamber instead of the round coming from under the breechface under the extractor. There is a point which the round
has to stop moving forward and start moving upward. That's known as the
timing of the release point, and that timing (and that release point) is important to proper function.

It's not as critical until it gets to the last round because of the added spring
tension that those rounds provide, since the last round has minimum spring tension to fight the effects of inertia during recoil. Of course, if the spring is really weak, the problem will start to show before the last round.
Here, you have the next to last round ejecting from the gun...live...and the last round chambering. It slipped past the release point, and the upcoming last round launched it from the port. Ever found a live round among your fired brass? Ever had the slide lock on empty with the last round lying on top of the mag still in the port? There's your sign!

The telltale signs are burrs right on the edge of the rims of some of your brass that the front of the hook kicked up as it climbed the rim. If your
tension is heavy enough, the hook will snap over fairly easily with a push
in the event of a failure to return to battery with the rim ahead of the extractor. A failure to go to battery with the rim UNDER the extractor isn't the same thing. In the fromer description, you can feel and hear the hook snap over. With the latter, you just feel a smooth resistance when you push.

The push-feed condition will also take the tension out of an extractor
quickly... more quickly if it isn't spring-tempered steel. When that starts to happen, the failures to return to battery often stop, and the shooter assumes that the problem "worked itself out", but the gun still isn't functioning correctly. At that point, either the extractor will continue to lose tension and fail to extract...or it will continue to function until it breaks.

If you get a chance to look at a NIB Springfield Mil-Spec...take a look at the
mag follower. The little-bitty round tit that you see is the dimple of which I speak. It halts the forward movement of the last round and coincides with the release point of the round, letting it move upward on the breechface and under the hook, as per the design.

Fresh springs will help greatly, but may not cure the problem completely.
 
Now I'm thinking that I don't have this problem, as the push is smooth. I haven't looked at the brass, I guess I'm just going to be forced to go back to the range and make bullets into brass...

I haven't found a live round in the brass, or had a lock back with rounds in the chamber or mag.

Maybe I don't have this problem.
 
Maybe Baby...

Jammer said:

Maybe I don't have this problem.

Maybe not...but something broke your extractor. Not even an MIM extractor will break very easily if all the rounds do a controlled feed.
Lose tension quickly...yes. Break...no. Not very easily. A heat-treated
barstock extractor like the Hardcore should last for 10s of thousands of rounds unless it gets hit hard repeatedly.

Those symptoms are usually noted as the condition gets fairly advanced. Earlier on, the push-feed can occur without stopping the gun
or causing a problem at all...until the hook breaks. Shoot the gun a few dozen times and check for the burred/dinged rims right on the edge. It
will probably be rounded in shape, with a sharp burr right on the edge of the rim. The mark nearer the center is the ejector mark, and doesn't mean anything. It's the one on the edge to watch for. If possible, mark the
bottom rounds in the magazines and look at all of them closely. That'll
cut down on time spent if the last rounds all stand out from the rest.

While you're at it, check the forward angle in the extractor grooves of your fired brass. If the hook is getting hit by the case, that'll break one too.

Luck!

Tuner
 
Now here's another thought.

I can't test the weapon the way it was.

The extractor broke. Therefore, I have to replace it.

If I replace it, and I fit it correctly, is it possible that I HAD this problem, and fitting a new extractor corrects it, leaving me with a Genuine Mystery that I'll never solve?
 
Refit the Extractor

Jammer said:

If I replace it, and I fit it correctly, is it possible that I HAD this problem, and fitting a new extractor corrects it, leaving me with a Genuine Mystery that I'll never solve?

Maybe...The only way to know is to shoot the gun and see.

I would advise that if you're going to use the specs that I gave...to approach the .125 dimension on the front pad carefully...a little off the pad at a time. It's entirely possible that you won't have to remove any at all...or maybe just down to .130 inch or so. The right side of the center pad
is reduced to provide more spring to the extractor...and to give it a little more room for dirt to go without causing problems related to too much tension. The left side of the center pad can be left alone if you want.
I've tried it both ways and can't tell any difference.

Bring the right side down to give you a .195 total diameter and it'll be fine.
Then begin the tension check on the front pad. Check for contact with the extractor groove with the front of the hook, and relieve as needed with a
smooth radiusing cut.

Check also for any sign of the front of the hook making hard contact with the barrel. That can happen once in a blue moon, and will snap a hook off pronto.

Luck!

Tuner
 
Jammer, I have noticed this on 2 Springfields I've fitted Caspian extractors to, the nose of the extractor would touch the barrel/breech/hood whatever you want to call it.... Anyway, make sure your aftermarket extractor isn't bumping the barrel.

The Ed Brown extractor may not be as long as a Caspian but it's something to look for. It only takes a little relieving to end the contact.
 
AW!!!! No way, I was typing my last post and meanwhilst before I hit the "submit reply" box Tuner beat me to it......

Check also for any sign of the front of the hook making hard contact with the barrel. That can happen once in a blue moon, and will snap a hook off pronto.
Click to expand...

Dang you Tuner :evil:
 
The other thing to check that can cause an extractor hook to break is whether or not it is clocking. If the extractor clocks when going into battery, part of the hook has to snap over the rim. I've broken one that way. Mine broke the hook at a diagonal.
 
Stop the Clock!

Kruzr said:

The other thing to check that can cause an extractor hook to break is whether or not it is clocking. If the extractor clocks when going into battery, part of the hook has to snap over the rim.
__________________

Yep...Clean fergot about that one. :p

Thanks Kruz!

Many things can cause an extractor to break. To repeat:

That the gun functions doesn't necessarily mean that it's functioning correctly.

Night ever'body!

zzzzzzzzzzTunerzzzzzzz
 
Data

Here's the measurements I took on the American ammo, copying the specs on page 22 of Kuhnhausen Vol. II:

Overall length: 1.253, specs 1.200 to 1.275: In Spec.

Diameter: .473, specs .473: In Spec.

Base Diameter: .475, specs .480-.010, In Spec.

Base Thickness: .045, specs .049-.010, In Spec.

Diameter of the bottom of the "slot": .400, specs .400, In Spec.

Brass Length: .899, over length by .001. (shouldn't matter, as the overall length is good.)

The headstamp is "AMER". The brass is brass.

I may get a picture up later tonight.
 
a related question...

O.k., now you've done it Tuner. I'm scrounging my brass to look at rim marks. What will be next.

My question to Tuner, Bill Z, Old Fuff, Mr. Rogers, Jim Keenan, Mr. Sample and the other gurus whose names I've forgotten.

My brass has barely distinguishable burrs on the rim, presumably from the extractor claw and a very definable mark or ding in the groove of the brass (sorry the technical term exscapes me) presumably from the head of the extractor hitting the brass. Is this a cause of concern? Is the extractor too long? Will this also lead (potentially) to a broken extractor?

Just for the record, the pistol is a Springfield "WWII" Milspec and I am having no problems with feeding or extracting. Just trying to learn.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread.
 
Brass Dings

Howdy Bemo,


The barely distinguishable burrs are probably normal extractor marks. The
one caused by a snapover feed will look like it was made by a dull punch,
with the brass swaged to the edge of the rim. You can duplicate it by
loading a round into the chamber and dropping the slide on it...once.

The marks on the forward angle of the extractor groove may or may not be a major concern. Headspacing is probably the culprit there. The case moves backward under pressure until it's either stopped by the breechface
or the walls of the case are expanded tightly against the chamber walls.
As long as the front of the hook isn't making hard enough contact on the angle to actually cause it to spring open when the pistol goes to battery, it won't likely cause a problem for a long time...if ever...depending on how hard the case hits it when it sets back. It's not a good thing, but not nearly as bad as having a pre-load before the pressure pushes the case into the hook. When that happens, the right side of the hook often bottoms out against the channel wall, and produces a hammer and anvil effect.

You can test for that by letting a round chamber from the magazine at full speed. There will probably be a light mark in the groove...but not a deep one that comes from the extractor hook pushing on the case after it headspaces on the chamber shoulder.

You can also look for it by taking the slide off and chambering a round in the barrel, wiggling it into the slide into the in-battery position, and looking at it from underneath with a flashlight. Push the barrel back into the slide
until the hood hits the breechface, and watch the extractor to see if it springs open...even a little bit.

Then, take a dowel rod and push it through the muzzle against the round to see if it makes contact with the extractor. It probably will touch lightly on this test, but as long as the extractor doesn't bottom out against the side of the channel, it'll be okay.


Luck!
 
educational as always

Thanks Tuner. I suppose to be safest, taking out the firing pin before doing the checks wouldn't hurt, as long as the fp stop is in place? Right.
 
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