Extreme shok ammo

[Uglyoldpoorman]

Pretty impressive gel shots

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=961_1224882864

 

[Yo Mama]

Gel is not tissue. It's lame stuff. Super light grain projectiles, and marked to mall ninjas.

 

[Marcus L.]

From a gel testing point of view, it is a very misleading presentation. First off, they give you no scale to interpret the size of the gel block or how much each load penetrates. I'm guessing they are using 12" long blocks based on my own experience with how ALL Extreme Shock ammo penetrates. There is no indication of the required calibration BB and there is no indication if they even used a proper gel mixture. Absolutely now way to compare what they have done relative to what other standardized testing done by certified testing institutions. They also picked a standard JHP 9mm load that only penetrated to around 6" in gel. That is NOT an optimal 9mm JHP load and would fail every testing criterial performed by any law enforcement agency.

Here's the ES Air Freedom round performed by the Firearms Institute which is a certified tester for the US government:

From a Glock 17 the 9 mm 85 gr “Air Freedom” load offered:
Bare Gelatin: vel=1598 f/s, pen=3.9” to 5.5”, small fragments


Extreme Shock does the exact same thing as Glaser, DRT, or BMT ammunition. It has VERY shallow penetration and fragments a lot. Glaser has been around for over 20yrs and has a long street history of failing to stop the bad guy effectively. Why because it does not reliably penetrate up to 12" in bare gel which is the crucial penetration mark for taking out the CNS or the large blood bearing organs of the body at less than ideal shooting angles.

This is what you want your ammunition to do. These are all Winchester Ranger Talons:



Service caliber handguns have always worked best by punching holes. No experienced law enforcement agency in the country uses fragmenting handgun ammunition except in training for shooting against metal targets.

Here's a good summary of why you want to use standard ammunition by Agent Patrick in "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." :

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

 

[Uglyoldpoorman]

Gel is not tissue. It's lame stuff. Super light grain projectiles, and marked to mall ninjas.

I work my fingers to the bone to try and find interesting little videos to make you guys happy and you call it lame. Well you ain't gonna get no more videos from UOPM. That's it, you ain't gonna have UOPM to push around no more. Go find you own videos.

 

[Steve C]

Here are some Extreme shock rounds tested on the Box of Truth.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Unfortunately, humans are not made of Jello. They have pesky obstacles such as hands or arms, bone, muscle and clothing in the way.

 

[Marcus L.]

Unfortunately, humans are not made of Jello. They have pesky obstacles such as hands or arms, bone, muscle and clothing in the way.

Exactly. This is why the FBI protocols were developed as they are. Swine ribs which are actually tougher than human ribs were incorporated into the original testing but there were virtually no differences in bullet performance between gel with ribs and without, so the ribs were dropped. In addition, the 1994 Canadian ballistics testing with ribs further confirmed that ribs were really not needed in the testing. If anything, the Canadian test showed that heavier bullets with better sectional density were superior to light and fast loads. Then of course you have the problems of skull deflection which were deemed most accurately simulated with the windshield tests.

Here's an explaination of Winchester's Ranger Bonded testing according to FBI protocols:

All testing is done in accordance with the standardized FBI protocols. The bare gel test involves 10% ballistic gel calibrated to mimic human muscle tissue. The other tests involve placing various materials in front of the bare gel to demonstrate what it would be like to shoot someone through such materials. After the bullet punches through these barriers it may become damaged /deformed or plugged with material(wood/cloth) which will reduce its expansion capabilities. When a hollow point expands it acts like a parachute reducing penetration. If it is damaged or plugged it may not expand very well which results in deeper penetration with less expansion. The FBI has done continued testing of ammunition for two decades and they take into account the results of actual street shootings and how that ammunition behaved against an actual person and/or barrier. With that knowledge, they still recommend that you use ammunition that achieves a minimum penetration depth of 12” in bare gel. They also conclude that good penetration is always more important than expansion, but as long as 12” of penetration can be maintained every bit of expansion improves terminal damage effects.

FBI Test Protocol:
Bare Gelatin = covered with T-shirt, Shot at 10ft
Denim = 4 layers shot at 10ft
Heavy Clothing = shot at 10ft
Steel = 2 pieces of 20 gauge, shot at 10ft
Wallboard = 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board, shot at 10ft
Plywood = 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood, shot at 10ft
Automobile Glass = 1 piece of 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees, shot at 10ft

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Through Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Through Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Through Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Through Steel: 22”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr(995)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Through Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Through Steel: 19”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Through Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Through Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Through Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Through Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr(1070fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Through Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Through Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Through Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Through Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

 

[CWL]

UOPM,

Extreme Shok has been pretty much discounted by everyone as a POS bullet designed for armchair warriors.

 

[Prepster]

I have to disagree. Extreme Shock is awesome...for blowing up water jugs. For social work, anything else is way better.

 

[Gord]

Extreme Shock is awesome...for blowing up water jugs.

If I wanted to spend two bucks a round on blowing up water jugs, I'd do it at 800 yards with a .50.

 

[MikePGS]

Actually from what I hear there's a new ES round thats supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. When you fire it, a miniature ninja leaps out of the cartridge and grows to full size, after which it immediately slices the intended target to shreds.

 

[JeffDilla]

Actually from what I hear there's a new ES round thats supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. When you fire it, a miniature ninja leaps out of the cartridge and grows to full size, after which it immediately slices the intended target to shreds.

Awesome! Is he reloadable?

 

[mgregg85]

Ah yes extreme shock...

THE GREATEST MALL NINJA AMMO OF ALL TIME!!!!!!?!

The only thing it does well is empty the money from your wallet.

 

[RustyShackelford]

.38spl loads...

I bought a few .38spl loads of this brand about 2 yrs ago. I was not impressed with the quality of the brass cases and they did not look very impressive for CC/duty use. The price was low but I'd stick to a well made brand like Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot or Cor-Bon.

Rusty

PS: Big ups to the Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC-HP +P too.
www.buffalobore.com

 

[Bill_G]

not a single police dept in the country has found it impressive enough to issue it.

 

[Gord]

not a single police dept in the country has found it impressive enough to issue it.

That's because they can't find any to issue. The SEALs and Delta Force are buying it all up as fast as they can produce it.

Nothing says "shock and awe" like busting into a crack den with shotgun leveled, and then depressing the remote plunger to explode your crotch, either. It's like a Teutonic evolution of flashbangs. BOOM! - cuff 'em, this one's a wrap. HK and 5.11 have teamed up to produce thermite codpieces for all FBI and DEA special units.

 

[Uglyoldpoorman]

Ok, I tried to get a mod to delete this post because I saw it becoming a slap fest agains't someone who just didn't know as much as everyone else but they didn't.

I really don't think I deserve being made a fool as many of you are doing but that is it up to you and your gods. I personally would not do it.

So once again I am asking a mod to delete it and let me leave with as a man and not a fool.

Good day gentlemen, drag the body as you wish.

 

[1KPerDay]

I seriously doubt any of this is personal, UOPOM. Extreme Shock ammo has been ridiculed to death multiple times... it's kind of a legend in the gun circles. You didn't know yet... now you do. No harm done and no offense.

 

[Marcus L.]

They're not making fun of you, UOPOM, they are making fun of the ammo. I'm sorry that you were offended by their posts.

There are a LOT of snake oil salesmen in the gun industry and it is important to all of us to point them out so that the good guy doesn't get themselves killed using this stuff. Any saleman that uses clay, fruit, water, or talks about the velocity, shock, or knockdown power of their loads is full of crap. What you want to look at are words like "good bullet weight retention", or good "penetration and expansion" and "passes FBI protocols". Basically, those companies are focusing on standardized ballistics testing which means you're likely going to get a good product.

Here's a list of GOOD ammunition to use in the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp. It has all passed thorough FBI protocol testing and would be ideal for self defense and duty use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124gr+P JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr+P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr+P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135gr+P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147gr Ranger Bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364) FBI Load

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180gr Ranger Bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355) FBI Load

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230gr+P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr+P JHP (RA45TP)

Also, be suspicious of internet gel testing. Those can be rigged to scew testing results simply by adding dye, using incorrect temperatures, using the wrong sized blocks, or getting the consistancy off. They should talk about proper calibration through using the calibration BB and a photo of the testing gel should show that. If not, it should done by a trusted, unbias tester like the FBI, the Firearms Institute, or the National Defense Industrial Association. In the past, Brass Fetcher did testing that was waaayyyy off standard protocols. Some say that it is now accurate, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is done according to spec now.

 

[Gord]

1K is right; we're not trying to poke fun at you, Ug. Don't take it personal - definitely isn't meant that way. As 1K noted, Extreme Shock is pretty well known, and well-loved for its comedic value, in gunny circles such as THR. If you do a search, you'll probably find a few dozen threads on the stuff, all filled with the same sort of goofiness as this one - and that's what it is, simple goofiness.

 

[Uglyoldpoorman]

I seriously doubt any of this is personal, UOPOM. Extreme Shock ammo has been ridiculed to death multiple times... it's kind of a legend in the gun circles. You didn't know yet... now you do. No harm done and no offense.

Well I am offended, when Gresham from Gun Talk reccomended this site to me as one above the rest I believed it.

That no longer stands true and as far as the mods helping out in these situations forget it.

Where are the mods?

 

[Gord]

UOPM, with all due respect, I believe you're being a bit thin-skinned here; none of the joking in this thread has been directed at you, nor has anyone posted anything mean-spirited about you.

There do appear to be some functions of the forum software with which you're unfamiliar. The first is the Search button up top; you can try one for "Extreme Shock" and see that it's been pretty well debunked as crap. It's generally assumed that anyone posting about it is doing so for joking purposes, hence the general goofiness that goes on in such threads.
The other is the Mod Alert button, which is the red-and-white triangle icon at the bottom left of each post. Clicking this button will bring up a screen with a field to give a brief explanation of why you feel the post or thread needs mod attention, if you wish to do so; after that, click the Submit button and an alert will be sent out. This is the fastest and easiest way to bring moderator attention to bear on a post or thread, but past that it's their judgment call as to whether or not any action is, indeed, warranted.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've heard Tom Gresham tell more than one caller to stay the heck away from all frangible ammo.

 

[Yo Mama]

Chil

Well I am offended

Awwww. Well, then maybe we should be more sensitive.
Dinner and a movie ok?

 

[mgregg85]

Take it easy there uglyoldpoorman, no one has said a single bad thing about you.

We're all just making fun of the excellent products of Extreme Ninja Shock ammo.