F Class - Tips, technique, equipment.

[WNTFW]

If anyone would like to offer any advice on shooting F Class I would really like to hear it.
I am thinking along the lines of:
Tips, Technique, Equipment, Practice and any other pertinent topics. Also add questions or topics as needed.

I have shot 4 events all at 600 yds and all at the same range. The wind is pretty tricky and changes direction 180 degrees fairly often. I have seen each wind flags going in a different direction with different intensity.

I shot a 511-3X, 515-5X, 534-6X with my .308 and a 559-8X with a .223.
I have steadily increased my score through improvement in my shooting hopefully and conditions also had to help.

My .308 is a mostly stock Remington 700 SPS Varmint. I did bed the action and stiffen the fore end. It has a jewel trigger. It has a hand me down bipod and scope. Bipod is too high and scope is a Super Sniper. Completing the package are Burris Xtreme rings on an EGW 20 MOA rail - these I traded for brass!

I have been trying to dry fire on a reduced targets. The 2 problems are the target ends up really small indoors and the scope is 16X fixed power. I scaled the target and don't know if I am dry firing correctly.

I have tried different shooting techniques and need to work on fitting the gun better. I can lighten the trigger. I was not used to light trigger and figured be safe. I think I can handle it now. I need to get a better cheek weld. Rings are too high so my DIY cheek pad is about 1" above the stock

What are you guys liking for scopes? How well are you seeing the target? What kind of sight picture or reference marks are you using.

I shot a .223 with a Night Force and could see better. my stage were 187-3X, 186-2X and 186-3X. The biggest thing was my elevation was more consistent. It went up to 32X & I could line up on the numbers for elevation.

How do you practice? Both at home and at the range. Is shooting at lesser distances much use. I could see where dealing with less wind and mirage would help me isolate my shooting.

Wind reading is a weak spot for me. But it is either wind or the mirage is worse. mirage is fun. I have read don't shoot on a boil. At one match there was a boil I was waiting out and I got impatient. I figure what the heck I'm not going to win anyway, let me see what happens. Don't shoot on a boil is what happened. It was quiet on the line so that proves none of the other shooter were dummies.

I show some promise and also some inconsistency at times. I have a miss in stage 1 and then shoot a sighter that is an X in stage 3. My last match had me at 4 in the 8 ring as my lowest shots. the match before I had a miss and 7 as my low shots.

Looking forward to any responses.
WNTFW

 

[Jim Watson]

I like F class but do not shoot it often enough or well enough to coach you.
There is a lot of good information if you sign up at:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/

I shoot a Savage 12BVSS-S made before they came out with the dedicated F class rifles. It has a Pac-Nor barrel and Rifle Basix trigger because the factory parts just were not what they were advertised to be when NRA reduced the targets to a 1 MOA ten ring.

I have a Leupold 8-25X which I normally run between 20 and 25X depending on the mirage. A Nightforce is better but not twice as good in proportion to the price.

I left my Harris bipod at home and had to borrow my partner's Sinclair last weekend and it was a major improvement.

Ammo quality really counts, too.

I think a good .22 at 100 yards or so is good practice without burning up centerfires.

 

[MCMXI]

WNTFW, this is a good thread and I'm hoping to learn a lot from it. I have a question about your matches. Does your target stay up for all 20 shots of the stage? Also, I'm assuming that your match consists of 3 20-shot stages. Do you have a time limit? The different courses of fire shown in the link below are a little overwhelming.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w22.pdf

I shoot a very modified F-Class F-TR format. Basically, the NRA High Power guys tolerate us coming out to shoot since it reduces their cost. We shoot their courses of fire but use the correct F-Class targets. We have two courses of fire.

500 AGG
200 yards - 2 sighters, 10 shots in 10 minutes
200 yards - 2 sighters, 10 shots in 60 seconds
300 yards - 2 sighters, 10 shots in 70 seconds
600 yards - 2 sighters, 20 shots in 20 minutes

800 AGG
200 yards - 2 sighters, 20 shots in 20 minutes
200 yards - 2 sighters, 10 shots in 60 seconds
200 yards - no sighters, 10 shots in 60 seconds
300 yards - 2 sighters, 10 shots in 70 seconds
300 yards - no sighters, 10 shots in 70 seconds
600 yards - 2 sighters, 20 shots in 20 minutes

The targets are lowered and marked after every shot during the slow fire stages. This can be a problem.

 

[USSR]

WNTFW,

I have shot 1,000 yard F Class for 7 years, only shot 600 yards once (this year), and started shooting 200 yard F Class at my local range this year. The best advice I can give you, is to shoot more often from the prone position, even if it's at a reduced range. You would be surprised how difficult it can be to keep all your shots in a 1MOA circle at 200 yards. You are not alone in having difficulties with wind. I would suggest you concentrate on a wind flag near to the firing line, and once you have your scope dialed in for the current wind condition, get as many shots off as you can before the conditions change. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[Jim Watson]

1858
That is just bizarre, there is no way I could shoot the XTC rapid fire with a single shot bolt action. I have an AR that is accurate enough but it is throated for longer rounds than the magazine will take and is itself meant to be single loaded.

The course of fire normally shot where I go most (Arnold AF Base, Tullahoma TN, and Ft Benning GA) is 30 minutes for unlimited sighters and 20 shots for record at 1000 yards.
The few 500-600 yd matches I know of allow 20 or 22 minutes.

The targets are lowered and marked after every shot during the slow fire stages. This can be a problem.

How can this be a problem? Shooting on the F target, you need to see what you are doing for every shot. There is a club here with no target pits that plans to offer F-ish shooting with a gong for sighters, then hose 20 rounds into a paper target with no observation. This is going to hold scores way down.

 

[USSR]

The course of fire normally shot where I go ... 30 minutes for unlimited sighters and 20 shots for record at 1000 yards.

Every F Class Match that I have attended, has been the very same format.

Don

 

[WNTFW]

Jim,
Thanks for the link.

I would probably bought a Savage if I bought new. The barrel situation looks good on those.

My shooting buddy & I could both use better optics but we can improve without them. Shelling out the cash won't be happening for me fot at least a year. My buddy decided to starting putting money on the side or sell a rifle to upgrade.

"Ammo quality really counts, too." The funny thing is some local guys go into fits if you talk about load development. I think it matters. I need to go back and shoot some more group with the load I am using.

The Sinclair is the wide bipod. The only one I've seen was last week on the winner's setup. I might either buy one or rig something up. At 200 it is not cheap but

I plan on doing some .22 shooting (which I love). One thing I plan on trying is shooting a bunch of 1 shot targets to constantly reestablish NPA on each target. I also want to shoot 3, 5 & 10 shot groups. My dry firing really is more about developing my position and NPA.

Thank you for you opinions
WNTFW

 

[WNTFW]

1858,
The course of fire sounds interesting.

We have 25 minutes to shot 2 sighter and 20 for score. We shoot, then the target goes down for marking and comes back up. 3 stages of 22. I am in T/R. The open guys are in the high 590's.

My last match I had 5 9s and a 10 for sighters. I was shooting someone elses rifle. My buddy scored my 1st string. I shot the first sighter and decided not to make any adjustments. The next sighter was 3/4 of an inch off. That in alone was a thrill to find out. Then of course I screwed up a bit here & there afterwards.

We had a new guy on our target. He had problems but was a real nice guy. He had a good attitude and was not malicious in his screw ups, so we treated him right. He will hopefully come back & improve. I have decided to keep track of my scores myself. I have had points and X's dropped just from math errors. The worst was my score was 20 points off in on stage. It was corrected because I check it.

Pit service can be an issue. I am not perfect either but I do try my best. I am now having my scorer call the shot value and check him against what I see.

When the target goes down I start realigning on the target # sign for windage. I use the targets next to it if they are up for elevation. When target comes up I'm close.

The one thing I have never done is crossfired in any rifle match includind highpower, but have only shot 200 reduced course matches.

Thank you also.
WNTFW

 

[WNTFW]

The biggest thing shooting at 600yds did for me was making me appreciate how 1/2 MOA is an accomplishment even at 100yds.

I have shot a lot of .22 but not enough. My wife just called me from WalMart to see how many boxes I wanted.

The wind closer to the muzzle affects the bullet more than the wind near the target is what I have read. 1 thing is the range has a berm 100 yds down the left side only. So left to right and right to left winds has different value even when equal. Every body says the range has tricky wind.

I have tried to slow down shooting but it is hard because I feel like getting the shots off before wind shifts. I have gone to a timer and try to take my time. It is hard to slow down.

Thanks you also,
WNTFW

 

[MCMXI]

1858, that is just bizarre, there is no way I could shoot the XTC rapid fire with a single shot bolt action.

I don't have any problem getting off 10 shots in 60 seconds (at 200 yards) and 10 shots in 70 seconds (at 300 yards). In fact, I tend to rush it and end up getting all the shots off in under 50 seconds so I need to pace myself better. I do have a 10-round magazine which helps, but a friend that has a single shot bolt action managed 17 shots in 70 seconds at the last match that he attended!

How can this be a problem? Shooting on the F target, you need to see what you are doing for every shot. There is a club here with no target pits that plans to offer F-ish shooting with a gong for sighters, then hose 20 rounds into a paper target with no observation. This is going to hold scores way down.

It's my understanding that the target remains up for the stage (shots for score) for most official F-Class matches. If the target is scored every shot, this is definitely a problem for two reasons. First, if the person working the target is slow or not paying attention, it may take a lot more than a minute for the target to come back up. Poor performance in the butts can really affect the continuity and rhythm off a stage. For our 20-shot stages at 600 yards, we have one minute for each shot. Bear in mind that the target has to go down, get scored and then go back up again. This reduces the window that you have to take the next shot. Sometimes you'll get someone fast working your target and you may have as much as 40 seconds for each shot but so far this has not been the norm for me. The other issue with the target staying up or not is that the wind conditions can change a lot over the course of a minute. If the wind drops but the target isn't visible then it's of no help. If the target is up and the wind drops, you can send three, four or five shots downrange during that period. I realize that for many, not seeing where they're impacting the target can be a problem, but if you're dialed in (after sighters), you should be confident that you're in or very near to the 10 ring.

As for our stages of fire, I'll take whatever I can get since I don't have a choice. The NRA high power guys are set in their ways and so we have to follow them. I did make the effort to buy official F-Class targets and made a reduced 200 yard F-Class target. Initially, we where shooting at targets that had a 0.3 MOA X-ring and a 0.7 MOA 10 ring! The club ended buying the targets off me once they realized that there was a method to the madness. I'd like to figure out a way to shoot an official F-Class mid-range course but it won't be easy convincing the powers that be.

My best score at 600 yards so far is 194-5X with my .308. I'm starting to get more interested in setting up my .308 for F-TR so I'm going to move my Mark 4 8.5-25x to that rifle to see if it helps. The Mark 4 6.5-20x that's currently on there is a great scope, but from what I've read, most F-Class shooters consider 25X to be the minimum magnification.

"Ammo quality really counts, too." The funny thing is some local guys go into fits if you talk about load development. I think it matters. I need to go back and shoot some more group with the load I am using.

I definitely agree that load development is critical. Then again, it's all critical at 600 yards and beyond. I've seen a lot of stuff not work at that range and I've heard lots of excuses as to why.

 

[USSR]

1858,

Never heard of an F Class Match with such rules, but as you said, you "shoot their courses of fire but use the correct F-Class targets".

It's my understanding that the target remains up for the stage (shots for score) for most official F-Class matches.

No, no, no. At official F Class Matches, the workers in the pits lower the target, and with a set of disks, mark the POI and the value of the shot before raising the target for the next shot. With a good pit crew, we are talking about well under 10 seconds, so little time is lost. And, the benefit of knowing your previous shot's placement is extremely helpful. Also, there is no time limitation for each and every shot. There is a set amount of time within which you must shoot your 20 rounds for score. Shoot it fast or shoot it slow, as long as you have all your shots for score in within the alloted time period, you are good to go.

Don

 

[Jim Watson]

A 194-5X is a very good score. I would call it great on a dump target where a shift in the breeze can move your shot a foot and nothing to do about it.

 

[Howard Roark]

I think what 1858 is saying about his course of fire is that they shoot along side the across the course shooters while shooting their F-Class. They are confined to the times of the ATC match.

Do they not have 3X600 yard matches there? We shoot ATC on Sat and then shoot 3X600 or 3X1000 on Sun. F-Class is included in the mid and long range matches only.

Nancy Tompkins book on Long Range target shooting is the best ever.

 

[WNTFW]

1858
a 194-5X sounds pretty good. X's are nice but having that high score is better.

So I guess my 16X magnification is not that good. I'm starting to figure out scopes a bit. Clarity or resolution makes a difference. I seem to have a hard time getting the parallex adjusted. I do trust the Super Sniper's tracking. One thing I don't like is the Up/Down Left/Right direction is not visible from the shooting position. I should be abe to remember which way they go but will just mark the knobs. Like the hot and cold faucets, I still look at them.

 

[USSR]

WNTFW,

16 power is fine for F Class shooting. I have a 6-24X variable scope, and almost always it is set at about 18X because of mirage.

Don

 

[WNTFW]

USSR,
I will be keeping the 16X for a while. I would rather a variable but the fixed is good enough for targets.
I have another 4-16X Mueller with 1/8" moa "clicks" that I traded for brass. I also have a Bushnell (IIRC) that goes to 24X that I could try.
I don't get wrapped around the axle on equipment too easily. I would rather shoot 500 - 1000 rounds in practice at this point. I'm starting to nip at the heels of some US Optics owners who have more rounds down range than I do. I think rounds down range are the bigger factor. I won't be making any optics purchases until I am certain that is a limiting factor. I am going to get my cheekpiece to where it needs to be first. I figure I better learn more about scopes and look at more before I could make a decision on what to get.

?? questions ??
What is the aiming point you use? Are there any advantages to different methods? Also what kind of reticle is your preference.

I have tried using the center of the cross hairs to the center of the target when I can see it. I have tried bracketing the black. When the mirage was really bad the target looked stepped and oval. At this point I am starting be able to say what I did as opposed to being overwhelmed and clueless.
My reticle is the Mildot. On the night force it had a modified mildot in which the bars and dots were open and not solid. It gives a few more references to line up on the target.

 

[MCMXI]

Don, thanks for the clarification on the scoring system used at F-Class matches. At least our 600 yard stage seems to be in compliance with the rules.

WNTFW, your point about not investing in expensive optics until you know that you're being limited by your current SS is one way to go. However, the other route is to start out with very good equipment knowing that you are the limiting factor from day one. For example, let's say you buy some cheap ammunition and put 2000 rounds downrange before you start reloading and shelling out a lot more money to reload your own or buy top quality factory ammunition. What will you have learned from those 2000 rounds? The lack of consistent performance may have you second guessing your technique and your DOPE. You may become discouraged and give up altogether.

My optics experience includes a bunch of Mark 4s, a couple of Nightforce scopes and a S&B PMII. Honestly, I don't know what the minimum requirements are in terms of optics but if you look at the top F-Class shooters, how many are using 15x or 16x optics at 600 yards or greater? The reticle is important too. All of my Mark 4s have the Tactical Milling Reticle (TMR) with the following dimensions at 600 and 1000 yards (2nd FP models). These dimensions will only be accurate at the maximum magnification with SFP models.

So theoretically, I should be able to use a 10x scope at 600 yards and still make out the X-ring. The 10x I'll be using at the next match is a FFP model and based on Leupold's literature, the reticle won't obscure more of the target compared to a Mark 4 10x SFP scope. Anyway, the point is, reticle choice and dimensions can be as important, and possibly more important than the difference between a 15x or 25x scope.

Do they not have 3X600 yard matches there? We shoot ATC on Sat and then shoot 3X600 or 3X1000 on Sun. F-Class is included in the mid and long range matches only.

No ... we shoot on a Marine Corps range once a month or thereabouts (twice this month). The base commander allows the club to use the range because he was told that NRA High Power matches would help the Marines improve their shooting skills. All of the High Power shooters are trying to get their Distinguished ratings so they have no interest in F-Class.

 

[USSR]

...start out with very good equipment knowing that you are the limiting factor from day 1.

I agree (income permitting), this is the way to go. On the other hand, this eliminates blaming your shooting on your equipment. However, since most guys can't lay out several thousand all at once, it becomes a game of priorities. Do you lay out the $$$ for a new scope, barrel, or stock first?

Don

 

[MCMXI]

Do you lay out the $$$ for a new scope, barrel, or stock first?

If incrementalism is unavoidable, I'd buy good optics, rings and a one-piece base first since they'll last indefinitely. I might as well start with something that isn't going to change as the upgrade progresses. Also, I wouldn't want to be burning up a good barrel with crappy optics. Then I'd buy a stock based on the action/barrel that I was planning on using. Finally, I'd buy a new barrel assuming that I was going to use the original action.

WNTFW, you mentioned that your Super Sniper scope has a mildot reticle. Is there a dot at the center where the vertical and horizontal stadia intersect?

 

[WNTFW]

"Do you lay out the $$$ for a new scope, barrel, or stock first?"

After using the NightForce, my buddy & I talked about that on the way home. I am of several mindsets but only one budget. I'd say glass is a good place to spend because I can't DIY that. I guess it really comes down to what gives the best return for the investment. DIY is fun also, but can cost more that just buying what is needed. Time is money. Injuries cost money also.:banghead:

"Never underestimate the amount of toil and angst a cheap SOB will put himself thru to save 50 cents."

When I bedded my stock my first goal was not glue the action in permanently. Worst case scenario was I would ruin the stock and have to go out & buy a good one anyway.

On one hand it is very satisfying getting the results I am getting with what I have. If I had the money I would probably have all the "Stuff" already. "Buy Once, Cry Once"

The #1 thing for me is I don't let not having the best equipment stop me. I have always been that way. I have seen a lot of guy with really good equipment not do well in several forms of racing. In racing you are always at some risk to life & limb so that is a factor. In shooting sports you at least are supposed to be on the safe end of things.

I always worked on the weakest link first
I think right now my fit & technique are the weakest link.
Bipod and rear bag ar 2 items I need to improve both in quality and usage.
Eventually the scope will be scrutinzed. I'll replace the barrel when I wear it out.

 

[WNTFW]

"If incrementalism is unavoidable, I'd buy good optics, rings and a one-piece base first since they'll last indefinitely. I might as well start with something that isn't going to change as the upgrade progresses. Also, I wouldn't want to be burning up a good barrel with crappy optics. Then I'd buy a stock based on the action/barrel that I was planning on using. Finally, I'd buy a new barrel assuming that I was going to use the original action."

Incrementalism is a perfect description. I think that is a good plan. If I had to spend 3K tomorrow I'd probably make some less than optimal choices.

No sir on the center dot. It is thick/thin stadia with 4 dots on each side. 16X fixed by 42 and a 30 MM tube. I just don't have a lot of long range scope experience. I'm interested in what you're going to say on the center dot.

Funny thing is the all the trades found me. The only thing I paid cash for is the sling & ECI. I also bought my bedding material. The guy that gave me the scope even included scope covers. I get blown away every time I think about that

I need to take some pics of the 700 and get them on here.

 

[MCMXI]

WNTFW, my question re the center dot was if there was one, it might obscure the X-ring and possibly the 10-ring. Since there isn't one on the Super Sniper mildot reticle, the point is moot. I look forward to seeing some photos of your rifle. It sounds like you have a good basis for a great set up and you can add to it as money/time allows. You already have a Jewell trigger which I consider to be one of the best 700 triggers on the planet. I have Jewell triggers in three 700s. Another cheap upgrade for your Remington is a Tubb SpeedLock firing pin and spring. They run about $65 and reduce the lock time by half. If you add one of those, you won't be swapping it out for something else down the line. I would strongly suggest a new, larger diameter bolt when you finally upgrade the barrel. A PT&G bolt will cost around $100 and a good gunsmith can headspace the bolt/chamber on your new barrel. The factory stock that you're using could be swapped out for an AICS or McMillan and you'd most likely see a noticeable improvement.

You asked earlier about tips and suggestions when shooting at 600 yards. My Mark 4 scopes have 1/4 MOA adjustments which equates to about 1-1/2" per click at 600 yards. The X-ring is about 3" in diameter so it's not always possible to adjust the reticle so that the POA and POI is in the center of the X-ring. I often end up holding left, right, up or down for fine adjustment, particularly if I'm off by less than 1-1/2".

 

[WNTFW]

1858,
I'll look into the items you listed. My buddy had a Jlock bolt and replaced it.
I can't say I knew much about aftermarkets triggers until I got this one. Still don't other than I was lucky.
I am pretty fortunate in few ways. I have access to a few ranges. I have some really cool shooting buddies. We try to help each other out & pool our resources. Having found THR and the guys on here is a gold mine.
My rifle is a bit lighter than the other ones on the line. I don't want to add any weight. I still want it to be able to go in the field with it. It is kind of heavy for that as it is. I may put a removable weight in the butt stock.
I 'll get some pics before going any further.

Next match is the state championships. I will not be shooting in them. I may got to observe & help the guys run the match. They plan on cooking, so I can free up someone that is shooting. I would have never been able to go watch before, now I would like to just observe.

 

[WNTFW]

Here are some pics.

Front bipod is too high for 600yds, going to a shorter Harris. It works well for shorter ranges.


Scope rings are a bit high


Resulting in need to add a high cheek riser.




I want to add and adjustable riser but the stock has the "thing" on the left side.


For less that $100 I can drop the height of the rings & bipod. The cheek piece works surprisingly well. I didn't know what I would want or need in a cheek piece so I went with a non permanent one. It will need to be harder and refined. Overall not bad for a few minutes, some cutting tools and tapes.

 

[WNTFW]

I did a DIY bedding job. That is stressful for a first timer. Research helps but also adds to the stress in ways. Partly because of the horror stories of actions getting too permanent with stocks and conflicting views about materials. I settled on a course of action and stuck with it.
Figuring out what to relieve and how much bedding material and every other detail can wear you out. The SPS stock is pretty flexible in the fore end. I figured I could stiffen it a few ways. I found a piece a aluminum in my cutoff pile and used it. The aluminum was fitted and prepared for adhesion as well.







I did the aluminum first. One reason was to see how well the Devcon 10110 Plastic Steel Putty (A) would adhere to the aluminum and more importantly the synthetic stock. I did spray the stock with bulldog adhesion promoter first.

Then I bedded the action. The next thing that was really hard was trusting the release agent, the epoxy mix and any other chemistry. Keeping your hands off while it cures takes a bit of restraint.




Overall I was pleased with the result. I have a few tiny voids and some areas that could have been better. I cut down the bedding in front of the lug so it does not touch the barrel. The epoxy in that area ties into the aluminum channel for strength. The barrel is generously free floated and stock is much sturdier.