Factory JHP, Mexican match or full reloads

[30cal_Fun]

Personal defence 9mm ammunition is completely unavailable here.
However, reloading components and standard 9mm ammo are plentiful.

As I see it I have tree options:
1: Buy factory JHP target ammunition.
2: Make Mexican match with standard factory FMJ ammo.
3: Reload from scratch with suitable bullets.

1 Factory target JHP
Simpelest option. It was tested to function reliably in a variaty of handguns, if my handgun fires say 100-200 rounds without problems than I can depend on it to function well. I won't have to worry about variables like seating depth, neck tension or the amount of crimp like in option 2 and 3. But with no data on expension in soft targets like balistics gel there is no telling how suited this ammo is for personal defense. It was never nesigned for this purpose so there is no telling how it will perform in this scenario.
I can get Magtech 115 JHP, Selliet & Bellot 115 JHP and Geco 115 JHP.

2 Mexican match
Pull the bullets off of factory FMJ ammo, possibly increase the load 5-10% to get some extra velocity and replace with suitable bullet of same weight (Speer gold dot for instance).
This option takes little effort but what I am worried about is reliability.
Neck tension could be anywhere, so velocity could vary a lot. Resizing could solve this but will probably also lengthen the case which means trimming is needed which can't be done with the primer in place which would make it more work than full reloads.
I have made plenty of 7.62x54R Mexican match for my Mosin with no problem, but personal defense ammo for a semi-auto handgun is a completely different story, one that I have no experience with.
I can get a variety of factory 115 and 124 grain FMJ ammo.

3 Full reloads
Most time and cost intensive but I know exactly what and how much the ammo is made of. However, I would have to test a lot of it to make sure it functions reliably. Also, I don't have a chronograph, so I would have no idea about velocity.
As for suitable bullets I have been able to find Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber and Hornady XTP, all in 115, 124 and 147 gr.

Which option would you pick and why?

 

[ljnowell]

"Increasing the load 10-15%" is not a viable option. You have no way of knowing what the powder is. Further you would have to resize the cases anyway, so you may as well just buy primed brass, that's what you are using anyway.

You may as well just purchase components and work up your own load.

 

[gamestalker]

Your really making this far more complicated and riskier than it needs to be. What I most definitely wouldn't consider doing, is altering the charge of an unknown powder, big red flag here.

Seating deph and neck tension are easily remedied by simply resizing, and seating to the functional depth of the firearm.

So, why not just pull the bullets, toss the "unknown powder", take the expander button out of your resizing die, and then resize the case.

Or, measure the brass to confirm if it is within SAAMI spec, which it almost certainly wil be. And although I do maintain all my brass to within SAAMI spec., it isn't really necessary to concern yourself with trimming at all, it's unfired factory brass.

Then charge the case with the powder and published data of your liking, reuse the original JHP bullets and already primed brass, seat to the functional OAL for your firearm, problem solved.

And just to eleviate any reliability concerns, after resizing the brass, I would inspect the primers to make sure they didn't get slightly pushed out by air presure that may have been created while resizing, if so, no need to remove them, just reseat them.

And since these are JHP's, you can simply chamfer the inside of the case mouth just enough to allow the bullets to set up straight, and seat without shaving, then just seat to the desired depth, no belling or crimping necessary.

GS

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know what you mean by "factory target JHP."

The Magtech 115gr JHP is advertised as a "personal defense round."

I found a backyard water tank expansion test for S&B JHP. It expanded widely with some fragmentation, similar to several US name brand loads.

I cannot find a test report on GECO JHP.

I think your fourth option would be to set up to test expansion of the available ammunition.
Gelatin is nice, but water will do.

I think your fifth option would be to load up with NATO FMJ and shoot for the places where it will hurt most... repeatedly.

 

[ljnowell]

Your really making this far more complicated and riskier than it needs to be. What I most definitely would consider doing, is altering the charge of an unknown powder, big red flag here.



Seating deph and neck tension are easily remedied by simply resizing, and seating to the functional depth of the firearm.



So, why not just pull the bullets, toss the "unknown powder", take the expander button out of your resizing die, and then resize the case.



Or, measure the brass to confirm if it is within SAAMI spec, which it almost certainly wil be. And although I do maintain all my brass to within SAAMI spec., it isn't really necessary to concern yourself with trimming at all, it's unfired factory brass.



Then charge the case with the powder and published data of your liking, reuse the original JHP bullets and already primed brass, seat to the functional OAL for your firearm, problem solved.



And just to eleviate any reliability concerns, after resizing the brass, I would inspect the primers to make sure they didn't get slightly pushed out by air presure that may have been created while resizing, if so, no need to remove them, just reseat them.



And since these are JHP's, you can simply chamfer the inside of the case mouth just enough to allow the bullets to set up straight, and seat without shaving, then just seat to the desired depth, no belling or crimping necessary.



GS

Why go through all that when you could just buy primed brass? Or just unprimed brass and start from scratch.

To me it just doesn't make sense to pull bullets, toss powder, size cases, use new powder and bullet. It seems like a waste of both time and money.

 

[Potatohead]

I don't know what you mean by "mexican match".

 

[rcmodel]

'Mexican Match' is an old term originating in Mmmm? Mexico?, or at least on the southwest boarder states years ago when Metallic silhouette shooting was a very big thing there.

People would pull the bullets on cheap mil-sup ammo and replace them with high quality match bullets using the same primer & powder charge.

rc

 

[Potatohead]

thanks. hadn't heard that one. sounds like a lot of trouble to still not be in control of your whole cartridge.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't know what you mean by "factory target JHP."

The Magtech 115gr JHP is advertised as a "personal defense round."

I also was at a loss when I read that. The ammo made by Magtech is high quality and reliable. I have shot a good amount of Magtech ammo and you can trust it.

S&B ammo is also good stuff but I just like Magtech better. Maybe it's because I like the Magtech brass better for reloading.

Just to echo the others, I would never add powder to an unknown powder charge like you suggested. That is very dangerous.

 

[Potatohead]

FWIW I love CBC brass also. It's also the only factory defensive ammo I use in my 380.

 

[Bula]

2 Mexican match

As a Mexican myself, I can tell you that I find that term....completely HILARIOUS.

Another vote for just carrying the facttory JHP ammo. I think sometimes we forget/over think that plenty have fallen to NATO 9mm ball throughout several wars/conflicts, all over the world. No it isn't ideal, but ANY ammo is better than NO gun.

 

[Mad Chemist]

A slight tangent: Wiki on Silhouette.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_silhouette_shooting

 

[Mad Chemist]

30cal,

Magtech or S&B JHP will get the job gun as long as the shooter does his part. Neither of these are target hollow point like Hornady HAP. They are bona fide JHP. They may not use the best "magic bullet technology" but they will work. Another option for you may be Fiocchi. Fiocchi JHP use Hornady XTP which is a well proven, if not exactly modern, bullet design.

 

[gamestalker]

In my defense, I was just trying to work with what the OP was suggesting in the first place. Me, I'm just gonna start from scratch and load as I would always load, to heck with rebuilding a factory round. Just shoot em up if you don't like them, then reload the brass as usual.

Comprende!

GS

 

[ljnowell]

30cal,



Magtech or S&B JHP will get the job gun as long as the shooter does his part. Neither of these are target hollow point like Hornady HAP. They are bona fide JHP. They may not use the best "magic bullet technology" but they will work. Another option for you may be Fiocchi. Fiocchi JHP use Hornady XTP which is a well proven, if not exactly modern, bullet design.

I bought my dad an LCP a few years back for Christmas and scored a deal on sone Fiocchi with the XTPs. They functioned good and were much cheaper than hornady ammo.

 

[Potatohead]

to heck with rebuilding a factory round

+1.

 

[30cal_Fun]

Thanks for all the advice!

It sounds like factory JHP or full reloads are my best option.

A lot of good points were made about Mexican match, it seems that it would be more trouble than it's worth. With to much work and variables involved I'm definitely dropping this option.
Sorry if the term "Mexican match" was unclear. rcmodel was correct, it refers to pulling the bullets off of factory or mil-surp ammo and (re-using the primed case and powder) replace it with a better quality bullet.
Also, just to clarify, let me explain what I was saying with "possibly increase the load 5-10%". When making Mexican match I pull the rounds with a kinetic bullet puller (hammer) so the powder is already out of the case. I then weigh every charge, calculate the average and put all the powder in my powder measure. If the new bullet is much heavier (say 174 compared to the old 147 grain) I reduce the charge by 10% to keep the pressure on normal levels. I just re-charge the cases with that 90% charge and seat the new bullet.
The same thing for lighter bullets (say 125 compared to the old 147 grain): I take the average charge and add 10%, I do this by pulling 11 rounds and reloading 10 with a 10% higher charge.
This has worked very well for me in making 7.62x54R Mexican match for my Mosin Nagant. To my knowledge 9mm target ammo is never loaded very hot but personal defence ammo is. I figured I can just increase the charge 5-10% (pull 11, reload 10 rounds) and use a same weight bullet to gain some velocity to aid in expansion.
But as I stated, I have no experience with this in personal defence ammo for a semi-auto handgun.
Consider it a stupid idea, one that I will not pursue further.


Now to explain what I meant with "factory target JHP"
This could just be a European thing but all the JHP ammo I mentioned (Magtech, S&B and Geco) is marketed, advertised, packaged, labelled and sold as premium target ammo. Below is a very typical production description of JHP ammo given by sellers (taken from the Geco link):
"The Hollow Point (HP) bullet is the perfect choice when you require absolute accuracy. A hollow point shifts the center of gravity towards the base of the bullet, which gives these bullets an astonishing edge in accuracy, a virtue on which shooters have relied for many years. "
I am not one to fall for sales talk and I always take it for what it's worth but nowhere on the packaging or on the sellers website is mentioned this is anything other than target ammo. I simply had no reason to assume the JHP ammo I mentioned was designed for, or will function as, personal defence ammo.

After some searching I found the product pages of the ammo that is sold here as "target JHP ammunition"
S&B 115 JHP: http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/pistol-and-revolver-detail.php?ammunition=9&product=69
Geco 115 JHP: http://geco-munition.de/en/products/hand-gun-cartridges.html#!95/588/350
Magtech 115 JHP (9C): http://www.magtechammunition.com/products/view-product?id=81
The Magtech website is the only one that even mentions expansion. Over here it is just sold in the standard blue/gold/white boxes as target ammo.

I hope this explains some of the unclear parts in my opening post.

 

[LiveLife]

To my knowledge 9mm target ammo is never loaded very hot but personal defence ammo is. I figured I can just increase the charge 5-10% (pull 11, reload 10 rounds) and use a same weight bullet to gain some velocity to aid in expansion.

... Consider it a stupid idea, one that I will not pursue further.

It's good that you changed your mind. I would not recommend anyone adding more powder to factory loads with unknown powders and charges used regardless whether they are marked "target" or "defensive" ammunition.

If you are concerned about the "target JHP" performance, check the velocities listed on the boxes or check with manufacturers (customer service or website). If all else fails, you can chrono the "target JHP" yourself.

It's been my experience that European 9mm ammunition are usually loaded hotter than American commercial loads on par with +P pressures/velocities. Since Magtech originates in South America, perhaps they are loaded to lower "American" pressures. Who knows? That's why I suggested you check the listed velocities or chrono the loads yourself.

Fiocchi JHP use Hornady XTP which is a well proven, if not exactly modern, bullet design.

Fiocchi with the XTPs. They functioned good

For my latest load development and accuracy testing, I forgot to replace the Fiocchi SP primers in the primer tray with Winchester SP primers I usually use for load testing (I have been using the Fiocchi primers for plinking loads). To my surprise, my test loads with Fiocchi primers produced tight shot groups which is making me consider continue using them for load testing - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9646469#post9646469

 

[ljnowell]

Thanks for all the advice!
Also, just to clarify, let me explain what I was saying with "possibly increase the load 5-10%". When making Mexican match I pull the rounds with a kinetic bullet puller (hammer) so the powder is already out of the case. I then weigh every charge, calculate the average and put all the powder in my powder measure. If the new bullet is much heavier (say 174 compared to the old 147 grain) I reduce the charge by 10% to keep the pressure on normal levels. I just re-charge the cases with that 90% charge and seat the new bullet.
The same thing for lighter bullets (say 125 compared to the old 147 grain): I take the average charge and add 10%, I do this by pulling 11 rounds and reloading 10 with a 10% higher charge.
This has worked very well for me in making 7.62x54R Mexican match for my Mosin Nagant. To my knowledge 9mm target ammo is never loaded very hot but personal defence ammo is. I figured I can just increase the charge 5-10% (pull 11, reload 10 rounds) and use a same weight bullet to gain some velocity to aid in expansion.
..

The problem, even doing it like that, is that you have absolutely no idea the burn rate of that powder. Reducing it 10% with a heavier bullet could give you a wild overcharge or could be so weak that the whole idea was pointless.

 

[WestKentucky]

The hollow point is designed to shift weight rearward which is more accurate??? In pistol rounds the tiny differences between fmj, jsp, jhp, and even cast lead are minimal as far as accuracy potential of the bullet itself. Accuracy comes from maximizing a load to function best in your specific gun. Terminal ballistics on the other hand are greatly affected by bullet design. Solid bullets deform less than hollow points but penetration deeper. Hollow points peel apart like the peel on a banana and often double or triple in frontal area but they don't penetration as deeply. All of the rounds you mentioned have a bullet designed to penetrate enough and expand enough to get the job done if/when it's required.

 

[30cal_Fun]

You raise a valid point ljnowell, I think I'll drop increasing or reducing charges when making Mexican match all together. Thanks for the insight.


Here are the listed velocities of the available factory JHP ammunition.
All velocities are for a 4" barrel.

Geco 115 JHP: 1137 fps
Sellier & Bellot 115 JHP: 1158 fps
Magtech 115 JHP: 1155 fps

All tree are very close in listed velocity.
Speer Gold dot 115 grain standard pressure is listed as 1210 fps (4" barrel), is 1150 fps still a reasonable velocity for a 115 JHP personal defence round out of a 4" barrel?

 

[Potatohead]

off topic but curious

Do Europeans leave the "h" out of "three"? Just wondering because you did it twice. Or maybe that's just a word you dont spell good...we all have one (or 20) of those

 

[30cal_Fun]

Haha! Good observation, and strange that I missed such an obvious thing. No that's just my keyboard, I spilled some sugar-loaded drink on it a few weeks back and some keys are still sticking, my arrow keys still won't move a bit.
I can assure you we all spell "three" with an "h" here When we are awake, properly thinking and have a functioning keyboard at least.

 

[Jim Watson]

is 1150 fps still a reasonable velocity for a 115 JHP personal defence round out of a 4" barrel?

I certainly hope so, considering that I have carried Federal 9BP of that specification for many years. It is accurate and functionally reliable. There are more powerful loads and there are more exotic bullets, but to prove them in all my guns would call for more time and money than I am willing to put out.

As to the "target JHP" it is true that a good JHP will be more accurate than the average FMJ. This may be more due to the smooth, square jacketed base than the center of gravity. Or it might be both.
Certainly a GOOD FMJ can be accurate. I wish I could get the Swiss service load they used to test my P210 with. The 115 gr FMJ Nosler was accurate in my guns. Of course they quit making it just to inconvenience me.

Handloading to a performance specification is difficult to impossible without a chronograph. Replicating a factory load or achieving manual velocity is tough when you don't know what the velocity really is in YOUR pistol. Consumer quality chronographs are inexpensive in the USA, $100 or even less. Probably more there, but are they completely out of reach?
Another argument for factory loads even if the vendors don't want to talk about shooting felons with their hollowpoints.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

30cal,
The link you provided to the 9mm Magtech ammo was the same one I looked at when you were talking about "target JHP ammo."
On that page they clearly state:
Suggested Use: Self Defense, Target & Match
The primary use for that ammo is self defense.

The S&B link has this right on the page:
Bullet JHP
A semi-jacketed bullet with an expanding hollow in its front part and a lead core fully covered with tombac jacket. There are few axial grooves on the jacket around the hollow. The bullet effect depends on the target resistance and terminal energy.

You said the Magtech site was the only one that mentioned expansion but the reason HP ammo was invented was for expansion. Like I said above, the Magtech ammo is a good choice. That's the one I would buy if all were available.