Failed transaction

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calaverasslim

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prior to my wife buying a new Sig 1911 for me yesterday, I offered to trade a Marlin 1895 LTD IV 45-70 for one. Feller wrote and offered me a very good, quality Sig Sauer 45, 1911 in trade. He sent pix and yadda, yadda, yadda. We made a deal.

He was over toward Houston and I met him in Schulenburg for the deal. When I pulled out the bills of sale for the Marlin and blank bills of sale for the Sig, he refused to sign any document.

He went home with the Sig. I came home with my rifle. That evening I received a nasty email about did I trust him and etc, etc.

Told him I did business with bills of sale and if he had nothing to hide he shud also. I never heard anything more which I suspect was a good thing.

What do you say?
 
Mention it ahead of time next time.
That is all you did wrong, bring up conditions that are not required after agreeing to make the transaction.
 
A lot of people purchase private-party specifically to avoid a paper trail. By requiring a bill of sale, you were introducing a condition of sale that was not self-evident. Be up front about it in the future.

Sounds like he had something to hide.
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Expectation of privacy does not constitute criminal intent.
 
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I agree. If you have any conditions you wish to impose on a transaction, they should be stated clearly up front.
Sounds like he had something to hide.
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I shred anything with any personal information on it before putting it in the trash. Yeah I have something to hide and with good reason. We all do, it's just that not everyone realizes how important it is.

I'll show a person my concealed handgun license with my thumb over my personal information so they know I'm over the required age and which state I'm a resident of, but that's all they get. If they want more than that, they'll have to do business with someone else.
 
Simple case of lack of communication.

Both parties had expectations... neither one had their expectations met. Both were surprised.

Communicate better next time. Move on.


Willie

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You're the one who broke the deal. Once the deal is made, you cannot require new conditions, such as signing a document. If you had ambushed me with any new conditions at the transfer, I'd have walked out on you, too.

People of good conscience disagree on the whole bill of sale thing. Some people think they help. Personally, I think the way most people selling guns do it is hilarious. How we ever got to the point that the buyer signs a bill of sale in a gun transaction baffles me. It's totally backwards.

A bill of sale is a certificate provided by the seller, naming the goods sold. It is the buyer's proof of ownership. The seller signs a bill of sale, and the document is for the convenience of the buyer.

It doesn't hurt if the buyer and seller want to swap bill of sale and receipt, if they both agree to that. But you've actually done more than your duty if you check driver licenses to be sure it's really an in-state transaction.
 
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calaverasslim said:
Told him I did business with bills of sale and if he had nothing to hide he shud also. I never heard anything more which I suspect was a good thing.

What do you say?
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You sound like a police officer. "If you have nothing to hide you won't mind if I have a look around, will you?" I have to agree that just because the buyer is more concerned about his privacy than you are, that is no indication of anything being wrong.
 
I agree with denton. You broke the deal, not him, by introducing a non-previously agreed condition. There is no legal requirement to exchange bills of sale, therefore it should not be assumed that one would be required.

If you're worried about the buyer using your former firearm for mischief, do you really think a bill of sale is going to stop him? Common sense would suggest that he wasn't up to no good. After all, he was trading away a 1911 in exchange for a Marlin lever action rifle. If anybody had ill intent in a transaction of this nature it would have been the person receiving the 1911.
 
This thread went about how I expected... I understand both sides of this issue, but agree that the terms should have been brought up in the first place:

1) The bill of sale you were requesting was essentially your way of showing proof that you sold the gun to someone else, in case something ever happened involving that gun.

On the other hand:

2) A lot of good and law-abiding folks like to buy/sell guns in private party transactions for the exact reason of avoiding a paper trail. The government is obviously heavily involved with firearms these days, and I think a lot of folks find comfort in knowing that they have at least a few guns of which there's no real record (hard to confiscate a gun that no one "officially" knows you have). As such, a person's resistance to buying with any type of paper trail often revolves around their fear of future gun control.
 
I think you should list this in the rate retail section.

I think bills of sale for firearms is a normal thing.

HAving them could potentially save both of your assets.

Not having them could get either of your rears in the clink if something went wrong- the internet is a source of many of these types of things gone wrong....

If you dont want to file the papers with the .gov- your business. Having those on hand when they show up at your house because the gun still shows on record as belonging to you was found at a mass murder scene ? YOUR BUSINESS.

I'v only sold one gun without a BOS- and it was so old, it didn't have a serial anyway. When I bought it at the dealer- the BOS had "none" listed in the serial column.
 
blarby said:
Not having them could get either of your rears in the clink if something went wrong- the internet is a source of many of these types of things gone wrong....

If you dont want to file the papers with the .gov- your business. Having those on hand when they show up at your house because the gun still shows on record as belonging to you was found at a mass murder scene ? YOUR BUSINESS.
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Since the internet is a source of many of these types of things gone wrong, then you should be able to provide an example of where not having a bill of sale caused "rears in the clink"? ESPECIALLY a case involving a gun at a crime scene with no other evidence of a person committing that crime other than the gun was purchased by Joe Schmoe?

To me, a bill of sale isn't a bad idea as it is just a receipt that each person received and accepted what was being sold and traded and could be used to defend against future small claims of something not being delivered as promised.
 
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Since the internet is a source of many of these types of things gone wrong, then you should be able to provide an example of where not having a bill of sale caused "rears in the clink"? ESPECIALLY a case involving a gun at a crime scene with no other evidence of a person committing that crime other than the gun was purchased by Joe Schmoe?
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Many types of examples of gun sales transactions gone awry- not specifically the worst case scenario mentioned.

Feel free to let your fingers do the searching.

Admittedly the worst case scenario is just that- the worst case, and I am unable to provide an example of the worst case I could imagine at 2 in the morning- my apologies.
 
blarby said:
Many types of examples of gun sales transactions gone awry- not specifically the worst case scenario mentioned.

Feel free to let your fingers do the searching.

Admittedly the worst case scenario is just that- the worst case, and I am unable to provide an example of the worst case I could imagine at 2 in the morning- my apologies.
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My problem is that I don't like to see people advised to do things with fearmongering theories behind them that don't have any evidence to be true in reality. You know, like the "you'll be shot first if you open carry" argument. Or, "If a gun is found at the scene of a crime with no other evidence of you having committed that crime other than an FFL sold that gun to you previously, you better have a bill of sale to prove your innocence" argument.

How many people get bills of sales (or even recommend them) when they sell other dangerous objects at garage sales, such as bows/arrows or knives or baseball bats?

I am particularly not fond of the implication that some have made that the other party in the trade was not "on the level" because he refused to do a bill of sale.
 
My problem is that I don't like to see people advised to do things with fearmongering theories behind them that don't prove to be true in reality.
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I'm sorry- having a tangible bill of sale for reasons both real and imagined is not fearmongering in the least.

I wouldn't sell even a $500 car without a bill of sale, for many of the same reasons.
 
I would mention up front, well before the meet, I ask for/give a bill of sale on anything over $100 (even a beat up utility trailer) and only buy/sell/trade handguns with strangers who are fellow handgun carry permit holders, just for KMAC.

When used guns are traded in at gunshops or pawnshops around here, the FFL is required to phone in the make, model, serial number, to the PD for an NCIC check on reported stolen property.

Gambling odds, a private buy/sell/trade is a legit used gun owned by an honest citizen. (I could take the NSPOF percentages on private sales/trades, civilian gun ownership estimates, stolen gun estimates, gun crime estimates. The last time I did it, odds of buying a stolen/crime gun are low.* I don' like the idea of taking the risk.)

But the NIJ "armed and considered dangerous" survey showed that 40% of armed felons reported stealing guns, 13% for their own use, most for sale. A lot of those end up trafficked by fences, drug dealers and black market. Many stolen guns, however, are sold like other stolen goods to ordinary folks who don't question a bargain. Buy/sell/trade with strangers with no BoS encourages theft and fencing of firearms even if only to a small degree.

Asking and giving a bill of sale on any buy/sell/trade of used property over $XXX dollars is common sense. I would only fault the OP in not mentioning before the meet. It would have saved them both a trip and ill feelings.

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* Except maybe in New York City: a lot of times when the NYC newspapers praise the Sullivan Act keeping legal handguns down to about 25,000 in a population of 8,000,000, sometimes they note NYPD or BATF estimates of 2,000,000 illegal handguns in NYC. Buy a gun from a private party in NYC, you are probably in need of oven mitts for shooting gloves.
 
I would have told you to do an anatomically improbable thing involving rolling doughnuts, and given you negative feedback. If you wanted a paper trail best to be saying that up front that way nobody wastes gas.

I'll do a receipt- name & serial number. Nothing else.

Have I got anything to hide? No. But if you want my info on your paper, you'd better come up with a "documents and information security and retention policy" and sign an agreement that if my personal data is lost or leaked you assume full and absolute liability.

I don't give out that info to anyone- not retail stores, doctor offices, or anyplace else.

carl brown said:
Buy/sell/trade with strangers with no BoS encourages theft and fencing of firearms even if only to a small degree.
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And I suppose gun ownership itself encourages gun crime and murders.

Really...crooks are going to do crooked things. A gun is no more than a tool like a lawn mower or a sump pump.
 
If you're going to have conditions on the sale, MAKE SURE YOU EXPRESS THEM UP FRONT.

There's nothing at all shady about wanting a bill of sale, or to check credentials, or to add whatever other stipulations or restrictions you might want to a legal transaction, but PLEASE make sure you tell any potential buyers or sellers what you'll require BEFORE they take their time to drive out and meet you.

I can understand why you might want this or that paperwork to make yourself feel more confident. I can completely understand why other folks don't want paper trails. I can also understand entirely why someone else would feel a bit put out by wasting their time on a deal that will be "changed" on them when they do arrive.

DISCLOSE ALL CONDITIONS OF THE SALE IN YOUR AD!

Told him I did business with bills of sale and if he had nothing to hide he shud also. I never heard anything more which I suspect was a good thing.
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I probably wouldn't have called you back to give you a piece of my mind, but you wouldn't have gotten my business, either. While I'd experience negative feelings regarding your forthrightness about your terms, I'd probably let them pass, chalking it up to a mistake you aren't likely to make in the future. If I were to leave feedback anywhere it would be limited to a comment like, "Buyer didn't disclose sale terms prior to meeting. Make sure you understand his terms and requirements prior to agreeing to make the sale."
 
NavyLCDR said:
Since the internet is a source of many of these types of things gone wrong, then you should be able to provide an example of where not having a bill of sale caused "rears in the clink"? ESPECIALLY a case involving a gun at a crime scene with no other evidence of a person committing that crime other than the gun was purchased by Joe Schmoe?

To me, a bill of sale isn't a bad idea as it is just a receipt that each person received and accepted what was being sold and traded and could be used to defend against future small claims of something not being delivered as promised.
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On the other hand, are there ANY examples of someone signing a bill of sale as a buyer and, b/c they signed, something negative happening to them?

Both are worst case scenarios, but one (original owner needing papers) is significantly more likely than the other, in fact, it is guaranteed that a seller would need documentation of a sale more often than a buyer would get in trouble for signing the same.
 
I don't get the whole "paperless trail" desire. So you have a gun or two that aren't recorded to your name at an FFL. If your fear is the Gov't kicking in your door for confiscation, does it really matter? so they find the ones they know about, is there a magic shield that they won't see the ones they don't? Buy a hunting license, have a CWP, buy ammo with a card, buy cleaning/shooting supplies with a card, the guys in black helicopters will know you have guns, 1 or 100 doesn't really matter. Just like if they have a warrant for only pot, do you think they will just ignore the big bag of cocaine on your table?
 
Yeah, nothing wrong with asking for a bill of sale to be filled out/signed if that is what you believe in....but to wait until you are at the meeting to drop it on him? Absolutely your fault the transaction broke down.

ID-shooting said:
I don't get the whole "paperless trail" desire. So you have a gun or two that aren't recorded to your name at an FFL. If your fear is the Gov't kicking in your door for confiscation, does it really matter? so they find the ones they know about, is there a magic shield that they won't see the ones they don't? Buy a hunting license, have a CWP, buy ammo with a card, buy cleaning/shooting supplies with a card, the guys in black helicopters will know you have guns, 1 or 100 doesn't really matter. Just like if they have a warrant for only pot, do you think they will just ignore the big bag of cocaine on your table?
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There will be no kicking in the door, there will be a letter, then someone coming by to collect what they show on paper you have (in the unlikely event of a confiscation). So the guns you do not have paperwork on can be hidden. It's really a pretty basic premise. It's not like they are going to send a search team through every gun owners house but even if they did who is to say you didn't bury your guns somewhere?
 
I always taken the view that if a gun is bought paperless, then it will be sold paperless.

If a gun is bought with a 4473, then sell it to another FFL or require some kind of documentation/bill of sale to CYA .
 
Well I don't see anything to be gained by keeping this open. There are folks in favor of documentation and those who don't like it. Each school of thought has it's reasons, and it's going to be up to the individual how he wants to conduct his [legal] business.

But one theme seems clear: spell out your conditions upfront.
 
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