Failure to feed with the last round of my 1911

[IrvJr]

Hey All,

I bought a used Kimber 5" 1911 (internal extractor, NO series 2 firing pin block) this past summer and although the gun is very accurate, I've been having problems with failures to feed (FTF's) when using factory loaded (Winchester and Remington) 230gr FMJ ammo. I would get intermittent failures to feed - it looked like the round was getting caught on either the breech face or on the barrel/chamber.

I took the gun to a local smith in Bow, NH. The smith suggested their reliability package.

I got the gun back last week and the smith did a nice job and had polished the breech face, polished the barrel ramp, polished the frame ramp, and adjusted the extractor tension.

I had the opportunity to do a pre-Christmas range session today. It seems like the reliability package has helped a bit. I no longer seem to be getting failures to feed with a full or partially full magazine. However, I now seem to get failures to feed when the gun tries to chamber the last round in the magazine.

This type of failure to feed is different from the ones that I experienced before the reliability work was done. The last round of the magazine partially feeds into the chamber - however, the back of the cartridge gets stuck on the front of the extractor. For this jam, the cartridge rim does not slide under the extractor hook. Instead, the cartridge sits IN FRONT of the extractor hook and the slide cannot return to battery because the cartridge gets stuck in front of the extractor.

this only happened with the last round in the magazine. It also happened fairly consistently. One thing that I did notice was that if I only loaded two rounds in the magazine, I could not get the misfeed to occur. However, if I loaded 3 or more rounds in the magazine, the jam would occur fairly regularly on the last round of the mag.

Here is some additional information. I was only using Wilson Combat 7-round magazines. I also brought another Kimber 5" with me to the range today and using the second Kimber, I shot 150+ rounds of the same ammunition (230 gr, FMJ) with the same Wilson Combat magazines and did not have any other problems with the second gun. I only had this problem with the one gun so I don't think the problem is mag related.

Any ideas on what would cause the cartridge to not slip under the extractor hook for the last round only?

I am planning to take the gun back to the smith after Christmas and see what he thinks, but any info that you might have would be appreciated.

 

[treebeard]

I can't help you out on the failure to feed issue, but I would like to get the name of the smith that you used in Bow NH. I live in Farmington and would like to find someone local. Thanks.

 

[IrvJr]

Hey Treebeard,

I'm sending you a PM with info on the smith.

 

[10-Ring]

Try using a Wilson mag & see if you can duplicate the problem.

 

[IrvJr]

Hi 10-Ring,

I've been using Wilson Combat 7 rounders but I still get this problem with the last round to feed.

Should I try replacing the mag springs or something?

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

My gun did this when the springs in the mag had been compressed for a long time. I know some people say you don't need to worry about springs getting weak on you but in my experiance they do after time.

 

[treebeard]

I ordered some Wilson Combats through my dealer and I should have them by the end of next week.

 

[Old Fuff]

Your problem is magazine related. First of all the spring is too weak, and second you need to replace the follower with a USGI type that's flat and has a dimple in the middle. John browning designed the magazine right. Later "improved" ones sometimes aren't. When a magazine is borderline, especially so far as spring tension is concerned, they may work in one gun, but not another. But not for long.

 

[wally]

If the last round is in front of the extractor the magazine is losing control of the round during recoil. While, a little limp wristing might be involved, that's why there is supposed to be a "dimple" on the follower to help the spring maintain controlled feed. Probably need a new mag spring. Swapping mags would probably cure it too.

A good spring will not lose strength sitting compressed to its working length. Problem is lots of crap springs supplied in new magazines these days, Para Ordnance really comes to mind here.

--wally.

 

[IrvJr]

Hi Fellas,

Thanks for the tips. I think I'll try some different mags (I have some Kimber 7 rounders that have the little bump on the follower) as well as order some new mag springs and see if that helps. My Wilson Combat mags are several years old and probably have over 3000 rounds through them so maybe it's time for some new springs, eh?

I consciously made sure that I did not limp wrist the gun during my recent sessions. I had a death grip with locked wrists on the pistol during these sessions and I still had the failures to feed with the one gun.

I read some of the posts on the 1911 forum and a few posters mentioned how the little bump on the follower helps prevent the last round from flying forward from the magazine during recoil. I don't think I'll be able to get to the range till after Christmas, but maybe I'll try to sneak out to the range before the New Year.

I'm still confused, though, as to why the mags seem to work very well with my other 1911's. Last week I put about 150+ rounds through my Kimber Pro Eclipse II and this week I put 150+ rounds through my Kimber 25th anniv custom. Both sessions were trouble free and I used the same set of Wilson Combat mags. Do the differences in feed reliability have to do with differences in the geometry of the pistols or in the recoil speed of their slides? I believe both of my 5" Kimbers (the 25th anniv one that works well and the used one that has the last round misfeed) have relatively new recoil springs (Ed Brown, standard weight recoil springs) and are pretty much identically configured.

Thanks again and Season's Greetings!

 

[distra]

It still sounds like a mag issue. It may be that the Wilson mag-Kimber I combination has trouble. I prefer the Chip McCromick and ACT-MAG mags. Wilson spring seem a little under powered in my opinion.

 

[IrvJr]

Anyone have any experience with Metalform mags? The gunsmith said that he really liked Metalform mags and thought that they were the best in his opinion.

 

[Mandirigma]

On Metalform

from the guys at m1911.org's e-zine Nov 06 review lots of pics

http://ezine.m1911.org/metalform.htm

 

[IrvJr]

Update on my Kimber

HI Everyone,

Thanks for the tips. It appears that it was magazine related. I guess my Wilson Combat mags have too many rounds through them! I switched them out for a pair of Kimber 7 round mags (the style that came with my guns) and my used 5" Kimber ran flawlessly!

i need to order some new mag springs for my Wilson Combat mags and see if this helps improve the reliability of these mags with my gun.

 

[shootergirl88]

Be sure to get Wolff mag springs for your Wilsons. They're great.

 

[IrvJr]

Shootergirl88,

Does Wolff make Wilson-specific springs? Someone on another forum mentioned that the Wolff Springs for generic 1911 mags don't work in the Wilson Combat mags. Has this been your experience?

Thanks!

 

[shootergirl88]

Having said that...

I searched Wolff's website and was unable to come up with anything Wilson Combat-specific. I've never heard of anyone having problems with Wolff springs in WC mags, but I have no personal experience with the matter at all.

I recommended Wolff because the replacement mag springs I ordered from them for my Para basically changed my life. Oops.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Your problem is magazine related. First of all the spring is too weak, and second you need to replace the follower with a USGI type that's flat and has a dimple in the middle. John browning designed the magazine right. Later "improved" ones sometimes aren't. When a magazine is borderline, especially so far as spring tension is concerned, they may work in one gun, but not another. But not for long.

Old Fuff beat me to it. Actually, this is a bit of wisdom I picked up from him anyway, so better hearing straight from the horse's mouth, no offense Fuff.

That said, Metalform makes the followers Old Fuff is referring to.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

It is not just the weak springs in those Wilson mags that are causing the trouble. The magazine has no way of holding onto that last round under recoil, and the magazine releases it before the extractor/breechface has control of it.

Anthony

 

[Deadmarsh]

Just thought I'd pass along a few comments from a smith who is a lot more knowledgeable than me about 1911 magazines:


Magazine Observations

This debate has fueled many flame wars...and it will likely rage on until end times...but here's my twist on it.

An old engineering axiom states that there's no such thing as a free lunch. When you change one thing, you change many things at the same time...and when you gain something, you lose something else in the process.

I experimented with creating 8-round magazines back in the mid-70s, fully 5 years before Devel went public with the first commercially-produced 8-round singlestack magazine for the 1911, and I've tried every 8-round magazine to hit the market in an honest attempt to find one that I would trust to function in a pistol that i'd carry for the off-chance that I'd find myself up to my kiester in Komodos...and I haven't been able to do that.

Seen many that worked fine...for a while. Some, longer than others. Some not long at all. Some hit the ground burpin'...but by and large, the ones that functioned perfectly tended to lull me into a false sense of security...and
choke like a pukin' buzzard without prior warning...and then go back to perfect function...and then back to Choke & Puke...and then finally settled in to not being reliable enough for a Saturday afternoon plinking fest.

Let me go ahead and say that...while I'm not a major player on the custom smith circuit...I'm no kitchen-table wannabe armed with a Dremel and Kuhnhausen's shop manuals, either. I know a little about the 1911 pattern pistol, gained over the course of over 42 years of wrenchin' on'em...and functional reliability is my thing. That comprises about 95% of all work that I do on the guns, and leave the wicked accurate bullseye/raceguns/custom pistols to the artists who do that. I'm just a mechanic...but I'm a pretty good one. My abused range beaters go for years and tens of thousands of rounds without a malfunction. One in particular hasn't had a stoppage in 15 years and over a 130,000 rounds. I've been using the same extractor in it through 3 barrels and one complete rebuild, with exactly one retensioning at the 75,000 round mark, right after the rebuild...and I attribute most of that to the fact that there's never been an 8-round magazine in the gun. The other 5 in the battery malfunction maybe once a year or so...mainly because of my old funky reloads with home-cast bullets and because I'm not a stickler on gettin' the guns squeaky clean after every range trip.

When you stuff 8 rounds into a space designed for 7, you have to sacrifice something in order to make room. Spring length and follower stability are two.
Redesigned followers are the rule, and some work better than others...but all are essentially compromises in an attempt to make up for what was lost in changing things around. Compromises in proven designs rarely work well.

So many have tried for so long to outsmart John Browning...that they really believe they have...but he did know what he was doing. He covered pretty much everything else, including some minor points that few ever take the time to study and ask: "Now, why did he do that?" ...and figure it out.
I have...and many years ago, I came to the conclusion that he was a whole lot sharper than most give him full credit for.

So...assuming that we can accept the fact that a man born in the middle of the 19th century has trumped us all...(and he has)...wouldn't it seem reasonable to believe that if there had been a way to make an 8-round, flush-fit magazine as reliable as his 7-rounder...that it would have been done?
Studying the minor details of the gun...and understanding what their purpose was and is reveals the genius of a man who didn't miss a trick. How about a show of hands for any who believe that he didn't notice that the magazine had room for 8 rounds...and tried it in a pistol that was essentially headed for
war...where an extra round could save a life. Anybody?

So...Second guess the man who knew more about his gun than anybody alive today if you want. I conceded defeat on that point 25 years ago...


Dead

 

[IrvJr]

Hi All,

Hope everyone had a good holiday. Glad to see there are a lot of 1911 fans on this forum...

The Kimber mags that work in my 1911 are the GI style with the flat followers with the little bump on them to hold the last round in during recoil.

I had bad experiences with 8 round mags too. They would work but not consistently. Every now and then I'd get a failure to feed or the mag follower would fail to lock the slide back after the last round. Currently I only use 7 rounders.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I'm going to switch back to the GI style 7 round mags with the little bumps on the followers. The Kimber mags of this design seem to be the most reliable in my 1911's.