1911 Failure to Feed; Diagnosis?

[cstarr3]

Buenos Nachos, amigos:

For starters, this is my first post, and my knowledge on 1911s and guns in general is not what I'd like it to be, so please be gentle in any criticism you may feel justified to give.

Now, my younger brother has a Rock Island 1911 which he stores with me, so I occasionally shoot it. The gun has frequent failures to feed all the way (something it has done since first purchased), and I told my brother I'd look into getting it fixed. When cycling, the cartridge occasionally goes in about half way and stops. A gentle tap to the rear of the slide, and even a generous push does not help the bullet get in. When stuck, the cartridge usually is not seated flat on the breach face, but is angled slightly upwards. As such, I think the rim is having a problem getting under the extractor. The only thing to do is to eject the cartridge. I have noticed that, on occasion, the rim develops a small yet definite spur, presumably where it came in contact with the extractor. This reinforces my belief that the failure to feed has something to do with the extractor.

I don't think the problem has to do with the magazines; one is a Smith and Wesson magazine and the other is a McCormick 10-round.

I am hesitant to take the gun to a gun smith, as I don't want to spend a lot of money on a firearm that didn't cost very much to begin with. So if anybody happens to have a good idea as to what is causing the problem, and maybe even a estimate as to how much it will cost to repair, I would appreciate it very much.

 

[357 Terms]

FMJ or hollow points?

Has the gun been maintained? ( cleaned/lubed?)

What happened to the original mag?

Its still probably a mag issue.

 

[rcmodel]

What type of ammo?
SWC, and certain types of JHP often does that with an untuned gun.

It should not do it with 230 grain FMJ-RN.

My suggestions:
Bevel & polish the sharp edges on the bottom of the extractor where the rim must push it aside, and front bottom edge of the hook where it digs into the case rim.

Then retension it properly.
See this about all that:
http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm

rc

 

[JTQ]

In general, 7 round mags are the most reliable, next most reliable are 8 rounders, and 10 rounders are the least reliable.

Here is a blog post from the late Mr. Camp on 1911 magazines.
http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-best-7-or-8-shot-1911-45-acp.html

 

[Fishslayer]

Fail to feed is almost always the magazine or the extractor.

8 and 10 round magazines are the work of the .

From The Gospel According to John Moses Browning...

And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it, and these profaners didst try and fit more rounds of ammunition into the magazines than the holy number of seven, appointed for the .45.

 

[1911Tuner]

When cycling, the cartridge occasionally goes in about half way and stops. A gentle tap to the rear of the slide, and even a generous push does not help the bullet get in.

In law enforcement circles, that there's whatcha call...a clue.

In 1911 wrenchin' circles, your gitalong hitch is called a 3-Point Jam...and the magazine probably isn't a player. Too much extractor deflection and tension can be a contributor, but is only rarely the sole cause. Initiate the malfunction, then use a length of 2X4 or something similar to bump the muzzle straight back. The slide should snap to battery.

What happens is that the bullet nose is impacting the barrel ramp...aka "throat"...too low instead of skidding across the top corner. That pushes the barrel forward, and up.
The barrel lugs try to enter the slide too early, and the lug corners crash...stopping the barrel from entering.

This is most often a feed ramp problem...specifically the angle of the ramp. Sometimes the ramp is cut wrong, and sometimes the top corner of the ramp has been rolled...or rounded...by a well-meaning but misguided Dremel jockey in his attempt to polish it.

Sometimes, it's caused by the way the frame and barrel ramps match up. When the barrel is pressed fully down and back against the vertical impact surface, if the lower edge of the ramp is flush with the top corner of the frame ramp...that'll do it. There should be a small gap where the barrel ramp sits about 1/32nd inch forward of that top corner.

Pictures of the frame ramp...and of the frame and barrel with the barrel pushed full rearward...will help to identify or eliminate these possibilities.

 

[HisSoldier]

Initiate the malfunction, then use a length of 2X4 or something similar to bump the muzzle straight back. The slide should snap to battery.

Very interesting, and the first time I've seen it. So, a whack against the muzzle face with a board or, say, a plastic faced hammer, would force the barrel back on it's link and that should make it chamber? This I will store in my remaining memory cell ("WORK memory cell!").

I wish I'd seen or heard that before, because that would answer the question definitively as to where the malfunction is occurring. So, after these results it would be clear that either the barrel ramp is too far back (flush with the frame ramp or even worse) or possibly the extractor is way too tight or jagged and is catching the rim. Is that correct?

A thorough understanding of how these malfunctions occur and their remedy would sure take the mystery factor out of things. BTW, the mags that came with my own RIA went right in the round file, and a Checkmate hybrid feed lip replacement mag went some ways towards reliability. Would not a late release contribute to his problem?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

This is most often a feed ramp problem...specifically the angle of the ramp. Sometimes the ramp is cut wrong, and sometimes the top corner of the ramp has been rolled...or rounded...by a well-meaning but misguided Dremel jockey in his attempt to polish it.

If this happened, or if it was mismanufactured, there is really no remedy but a new frame, is there?

Initiate the malfunction, then use a length of 2X4 or something similar to bump the muzzle straight back.

Do you strike it, or exert a steady push?

 

[1911Tuner]

The dynamics of the 3-Point jam are fairly simple.

When the barrel moves up too early, the front corners of the lugs hit the rear corners of the mating slide lugs...and the barrel stops hard. Lightly striking the muzzle pushes the barrel backward, and allows the lugs to move into the recesses between the slide lugs. The slide is then able to push it into battery properly...as the breechface contacts the barrel hood.

If the muzzle strike doesn't let the slide and barrel snap to battery, it's an extractor problem...and most often due to too much deflection. If the tensioning wall...the area that contacts the case rim and creates the tension necessary to hold nto the empty case...has to move to the right more than about .010-.012 inch as the rim moves up into the breechface...there's too much deflection. With the right amount, the gun will tolerate quite a bit of extractor tension, which makes for strong, consistent ejection.

The tapered/timed release "hybrid" feed lips can often help a pistol that has a tendency to do a 3-Point because of the way the rear of the case moves up at the same time the bullet nose moves up...but it won't alleviate a hard 3-Point. An indication that a pistol is trying to malfunction is one that feeds and goes to battery with a distinct "ka-chunk" sound that can also be felt in many instances. In these, the hybrid-lipped magazine can work wonders. Although this magazine design effects a slightly later final release, it starts to release as soon as the cartridge starts to move. Final release is less abrupt, and by the time it reaches the final release point, the case rim is already partly under the extractor's control.

 

[cstarr3]

OK...
1) Checked out the muzzle-bump technique, and that seems to get the slide to carry out its function properly after being jammed. So it appears to be the three point jam. Thanks, 1911Tuner.
2) This gun was purchased new, as far as I know, and has had no modifications done to it since purchased, so it is probably not the fault of a Dremel jockey.
3) Moving on to other possible causes, I have also checked the position of the barrel ramp relative to the frame ramp, and there is a small gap, about 1/32 of an inch, as specified.

I guess that leaves the possibility that the ramp was originally cut incorrectly. I am to understand that Rock Island is considered by some to be a bit of a hit-or-miss operation, so the odd chance that my brother ended up with a lemon wouldn't shock me.

As noted by 1911Tuner and a number of others, there could be some extractor problems. If it is only going to take a slight adjustment and maybe some polishing up a rough edge or two, I figure I can take it to a smith, and he won't charge me an arm and a leg for it (or I could learn to adjust and smooth it myself).

Thanks for all the help, guys (and gals, where applicable).

And just to answer some other questions from early on in the thread, so they know I am not ignoring them:
1) The gun has probably only had one to two hundred rounds put through it. It has been cleaned after each time it has been shot, to my knowledge.
2) I am using one 8- and one 10- round magazine, and I believe the gun only came with the one 8-round S&W magazine.
3) I used FMJ bullets at the range, but my brother indicated that he had the same problem with hollow point. I also cycled several hollow points through, and had the same problem.
4) The extractor does look a little rough. I have heard gun dealers tell prospective buyers that they would not recommend Rock Islands because their attention to details in finishing their components is lacking..."like having a gun lubed with sand" was the description the dealer used.

I'll post again on this thread to let you guys know how it turns out
Thanks again for your help

 

[EvilGenius]

I say send it to RIA if it's still under warranty.

I have an RIA Tacitcal that's been 100% flawless for 1200rds. But I've talked to some folks that didn't have such a good experience. However, they did say that their customer service was stellar. Good enough that they had no regrets what so ever about buying the pistol in the first place. Sounds like it's worth looking into at least.

 

[bigfatdave]

2) I am using one 8- and one 10- round magazine, and I believe the gun only came with the one 8-round S&W magazine.

if it was bought NEW, it almost certainly came with an "ACT-MAG" branded magazine, probably an 8x that had a largish plastic base-plate.
A pistol coming from RIA with a Smif mag in the box doesn't make much sense, try to dig up the ACT-mag from the factory (they aren't too bad, really) or try to borrow a Wilson/Chip McCormick/Tripp type magazine.

And a call to RIA couldn't hurt, Arnel in the shop is extremely helpful as was everyone else I talked to on the phone when getting something special built for myself.