Fat'n Slow 200gr SWCs for defense?

[Snowdog]

I took a lady friend to the range last last week with a variety of handguns for her to cut her teeth on. Among these were both my 1911s (Series 1 Kimber and RIA/Twin Pines).

Suprisingly, she found the 1911s most comfortable, despite her smaller hands. Though she seemed fairly good with the S&W 686 and Taurus 82 (148gr Hornady HBWC over 2.8gr Bullseye), she developed absolutely impressive groups using the 1911 (200gr Magnus Swaged SWC over 4.2gr Bullseye). She was able to repeat impressive performance time and time again when using this combination of pistol and ammunition... though she seemed to do better with the stock RIA with aftermarket walnut grips than the slick customized Kimber.

Though she proved a natural with the 1911 and loved the particular loads we were using, her groups opened considerable when hotter ammunition was used. When we stepped up to Winchester 230gr FMJs over [Removed by moderator] grains of Alliant Bullseye to approximate slightly warm factory fodder, her groups doubled or tripled in size, even though my groups were nearly as tight with these as with the more tame target loads used earlier.
Her groups were also a noticeable worse when using some factory-loaded (230gr) Federal HydraShoks and (185gr non+P) Remington Golden Sabers when fired though either the Kimber or RIA. With my relatively mild target loads, the groups she was capable of were absolutely impressive for a first-time shooter (circa 2.5 - 4" at 15 yards COM).

Here's the question: If she were to obtain a 1911 of her own to keep handy for range-time enjoyment/stress relief and also for defense, would she be better served with a factory JHP that she's uncomfortable with (and doesn't shoot as well), or with a swaged SWC loaded a bit mild (maybe 725 FPS) that she shoots well and finds quite comfortable? These SWCs are around 8-10 on the Brinell scale, so they're likely to deform significantly if a bone is struck or grazed, if that makes any difference.
BTW, 250 rounds of these SWCs between the Kimber and RIA with zero malfunctions.

 

[Graystar]

Well, we all know that placement is everything. A hit with a low power shot is better than a miss with a powerful hollow point. She should use what she's comfortable with.

 

[bakert]

Just a thought. Have you considered she might have gotten tired after quite a few rds? My wife doesn't care for autos but loves the .357 mag revolver and shoots it well but tires pretty quickly shooting full power loads. About 45 minutes of shooting even .38s she's about done in.

 

[Snowdog]

Indeed, there's no denying the importance of shot placement. However, I haven't a doubt she would be able to plant some solid hits on any assailant at ranges typical of defensive shooting (what is it, still 7 yards?).

If she were able to achieve proper placement with either, though felt more comfortable with the milder SWC, would this confidence alone be a justifiable reason to choose a "less effective" load over a high performance defensive JHP for defense?

The only other reason I can side with using the SWC is that she gets to practice extensively with what she has chosen for defense.

Edit: sorry Bakert, we must have posted at the same time so I didn't see your response. Though a good line of thought, I doubt being tired had much to do with this particular case as her groups would tighten after returning to the milder loads after a few rounds with the factory stuff (or my hotter handloads). It's almost as if it's psychological... which it might be. Whatever the reason, I'd suspect she'd probably do better with this range loads in a defensive scenario.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, they're better'n ball, which isn't a great endorsement, but hey, if she can hit with 'em....

 

[HSMITH]

I used to load a P14 my wife laid claim to with the same load, and was comfortable with it. Being young, and a whole lot smarter than I am now, I transitioned her out of a 9mm and into a 45 (I sold the 9 she liked and bought another 45). With her shooting the 45 regularly it was pretty quick that the recoil didn't bother her and the gun stayed loaded with 230 Hydrashocks.

If what she can shoot well right now is 200 SWC target loads then that is what she needs to keep in the gun. Any hole in a bad guy is better than a miss with anything else. Keep taking her shooting, alternate between light loads and heavier loads. Confidence that the heavier loads are not hard to control is all she needs to develop.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't worry about the legal beagle alarums over handloads for defense, but are you SURE those SWCs are FULLY reliable?

Charles Petty once did a magazine article on the .45 Lite. He got Speer to make him a batch of 200 gr Gold Dots with the larger cavity punch normally used for the 230. Then he loaded them to 800 fps to keep recoil energy under 5 ft-lbs. I kind of poo-poohed the idea at the time, but have since concluded that he had a good idea. So you could try loading her some softskinned JHPs to the same speed as those SWCs. Would have to be proven for reliability, still.

Or try some other brands. Hornady makes a 200 gr XTP standard pressure at 900 fps that she might could handle. I get the impression that Silvertips are mild as factory JHPs go.

 

[k_dawg]

Why not dry downloading a traditional JHP for her? Or, one of the "reduced recoil" loads?

 

[ShelbyV8]

Corbon makes a 160 gr standard pressure DPX round for short barrel guns. It has good penetration and expansion from a 3" barrel. It should make a great low recoil round.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Thinking a bit out of the box ... She likes 1911s but wants something with less recoil. How about one in 9mm or .38 Super?

 

[roo_ster]

DM's idea worked for my wife. Good with the 1911, but didn't .45ACP recoil.

Her SA LtWt UC in 9mm was just the ticket.

 

[Dienekes]

I used to load 200 gr SWC cast bullets quite a lot and carried them for work for a while when people didn't care much either way. I was running about 950 fps and it was a potent, accurate load. In those same years Jeff Cooper was advocating a 215 gr SWC doing about the same thing. I still shoot them now and then and have always liked that original load.

My CCW these days is a .357/125, but I would have no qualms at all about relying on the 200 gr SWC today.

Personally I think that 90% of everything said on ammo selection is just chatter anyway. Mindset, reliability, and accuracy under pressure matter immensely more. And compared to even a .30-30, pistols are iffy propositions at best.

 

[Plainmark]

one more thought on this..

Do you all read Massad Ayooub on these subjects? Placement is unquestionably primary, choice of caliber and round second. BIG problem is this: whatever you load up with for self defense and CCW - USE FACTORY AMMO. You probably already know this, but it (using handloads) is the way defense attorneys make you look like an intentional murderer and maimer to defend their clients.

Just at hought. My wife practices with full power loads I build. She carries 124FF Extreme Shock loads in her CIA model Taurus. Have you seen what this load DOES? OUCH!
just my 2¢
Plain

 

[gc70]

If the lady can shoot a .45 well and confidently with light target loads, let her use them. A 200gr. LSWC is still big and potent compared to a lot of other bullets and it's not as though it is going to bounce harmlessly off of an assailant.

 

[Hypnogator]

Couple of additional points -- I've seen 200-gr FMJ SWCs at several gunshows. I would far prefer to use the jacketed bullet in a defensive non-expanding round rather than risk leading or misfeeds caused by cast lead bullets smearing on the ramp. Also, you can jack up the velocity to whatever she feels comfortable with.

As for the "handloaded killer-diller bullets" theory, that concern might have some validity if you're trying to get add'l velocity with JHP ammo to increase (or make more reliable) expansion. But here, you're dealing with what is essentially a target load. How can an opposing attorney attack you with a straight face for using less powerful ammo than standard defensive ammo? I would clue my attorney to argue, "My client wasn't looking for trouble, packing super hot defensive ammo. In fact she had target ammo in her gun that most experts consider too mild for defensive use."

FWIW, this is the same theory behind what I advise trainees regarding shotguns for home defense: Use whatever you've got for hunting quail, ducks, whatever. And don't buy buckshot or slugs. At across-the-room ranges, even a skeet load will be devastating. If you shot a home invader with a normal duck load, no attorney can argue that you were "laying in wait for him with man-killer buckshot."

 

[Johnny Guest]

Sorry to come to this thread so late

Snowdog, I do hope you simply mis-keyed with the load you posted above using 230 FMJs and Bullseye powder. If you did not, then I can see how your lady friend's shooting deteriorated. With a 230, such a load would be downright dangerous. That amount of Bullseye is far too much for the 200 gr LSWC or FMJ, either one. FYI, Speer gives the MAXIMUM Bullseye load with a 230 FMJ as 5.7 gr, for 840 FPS.

As the lady did so well with the mild 200 gr load, may I suggest a similar, but slightly warmer load? Back in the early 1980s, a 200 gr bullet with 5.0 gr. of Bullseye was very popular - - It would barely touch major in a five-inch barrel, and it was really a poof load to shoot. It should run about 840 with the lead bullet, which would make it far gentler to shoot than any 230 ball load.

Congratulations on allowing the lady to stick with the pistol she likes. In time, she may want a smaller handgun, but for now, if she's shooting well, even with the light loads, more power to her. BTW: That 200 gr. .45 bullet at 744 will be just as effective as a 200 gr. .44 Special from a 3" barrel, plue the 1911 is easier to shot well, and disposes three or four more rounds.

Everyone else: Please, no more entries concerning handloads vs. factory ammo for defense. Snowdog seems to be aware of the controversy, and he's capable of looking up the abundant threads on that topic.

Best
Johnny

 

[trickyasafox]

funny this came up, im actually loading 200 gr swc with bullseye right now.

to throw an additional 2 cents into the pot, i'd feel totally fine with a moderate target load for defense. i think there is too much emphasis on penetration. i think the notion of shooting through car doors and heavily armored level III type stuff with a pistol is a bit of a reach. God forbid someone was faced with a situation facing an bad guy with armor and a car door between you and him/her, i definatly wouldnt want to be using a pistol!

i think the fact that lead deforms is a plus for defense, everyone talks about expansion and the material that flattens out like no ones business is right in front of us! i'd rather a severe bout of blunt trauma then a bullet passing straight through for self defense purposes.

just my 2 cents, please dont consider me an expert, or even competent for that matter. i can barely spell let alone make insightful remarks

 

[Snowdog]

Geez, nice catch, Johnny!
That was Alliant Power Pistol for the "warm FMJ fodder".
I haven't a doubt in the world 7.0+ grains of Bullseye under even a 185gr bullet would be anything other than absolutely dangerous! I guess it would pay to read over my posts before submitting.