shootingthebreeze
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FMJ
Favorite 380 ammo
- Thread starter Trad Archer
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Shawn Dodson
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If you have a chance to engage in reality based training in which you interact with a live adversary in realistic force-on-force situations with airsoft or other projectile firing training aids then you'll see for yourself how common it is for bullets to hit arms.
"A gunfight is more like a fist fight than a tactical nuclear exchange." -- Keith Jones
It is based on informed medical opinion.
And again, regardless of my weapon, if he is behind cover it won't be my best interest to attempt to shoot THROUGH that cover.
If you read what I wrote, my point was that bullets hitting bone at shallow angles do not penetrate, they deflect. And a bullet hitting a hand that is gripping a pistol, is not going to penetrate both sides of the hand AND the grip of the pistol and then keep going into the chest/vitals. I just don't see it happening.
Isn't "shot placement" what it's all about anyway? I guess I'd have to say yes, because I don't think any defense caliber handgun will reliably shoot THROUGH without deflecting off target anyway. Now, if the guy has his hands up (in a defensive posture) or his arms are crossed across his chest such that the bullet would penetrate perpendicular through an arm into his chest, maybe, but not if he has his arms raised in a shooting stance. Honestly if you aim at the gun might be your best bet. You either hit the gun, the hand, or if you are high you hit the collar-bone/neck area, or if you are low you hit the chest/sternum or belly. But now we are getting more into ST&T....
Yup, I have played paintball too. Not really the real life "case studies or statistics" I was looking for... but yes, I have been hit in the arm, but not any more often than any other part. And an arm shot would not necessarily equate to a kill shot if the projectile continued on its path. Sometimes arms get shot, but not always because they are in front of vital organs (they are appendages after all). Usually (for me) it is when moving transverse to the person shooting. Also been hit in the gun. I guess I should only carry bullets that can penetrate guns?
Yes it is an arbitrary guideline based on medical opinion. Just like daily nutrition values. If you fall short on riboflavin one day, you won't keel over and die. Just like if your bullet only penetrates 11.9" instead of 12" the bad guy won't just shrug it off and laugh at your futile attempt to stop him.
The .380 FMJ vs HP debate will rage on, and has been done enough times already. Obviously there are pros and cons on both sides (I see your guys' side as well, just fall on this side of the fence). And like everything else, it is a compromise. We compromise on expansion for more penetration, or vice versa. We ALREADY compromised if we are carrying .380 in the first place. I think I read in the .22 carry thread that caliber (or choice of ammo) would have only affected the outcome of a tiny percentage of SD cases, so at this point seems like a fruitless exercise (although fun) to imagine every scenario of a bullet needing to penetrate one body part before proceeding to hit the chest/vitals.
But yeah, my favorite 380 ammo (back to the OP) are the speer gold dots. YMMV
481
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Well, you seem to have all of the answers.
Shawn Dodson
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When a bullet first hits an arm it can reduce penetration potential by as much as 30%. A bullet that normally penetrates 12" may now penetrate less than 9" total after passing through the musculature of an arm. If the musculature of the arm depletes 4" of penetration potential it can leave less than 5" potential remaining to penetrate the torso - and allow the bad guy to laugh and shrug it off.
In the FBI-Miami shootout 3 of 8 FBI agents were shot in the hand or arm (McNeill, Mireles, Hanlon). The gun of another agent was hit by a bullet (Dove). Both felons were hit in the hand or arm. Matix was hit once in the forearm. Platt was hit multiple times in the upper arm, forearm and hand.
An adversary's arm doesn't need to be outstretched & holding a weapon to get in the way. An adversary's arm can get in the way while grappling and the defender fires from retention position. An adversary's arm can get in the way when a defender fires to save a loved one from attack. Arms get in the way all the time because they obstruct approximately 20% of the torso.
Most expanding handgun bullets designed to penetrate a minimum of 12" penetrate 14-16" to ensure they reliably penetrate a minimum of 12".
I get hit quite frequently in the gun hand/arm. I frequently land hits on the hand/arm of my adversaries. My experience mirrors that of many others.
I am not arguing that arm shots don't happen, I am simply saying that not every arm shot is a "woulda-been COM" shot. Sometimes an arm shot is an just that...an arm shot. Maybe you missed, maybe he moved. At least with a JHP you will hurt him more, tear some more flesh and/or incapacitate that arm.
Here's 3 scenarios:
1) FMJ round unobstructed to COM, but misses vitals/CNS by fraction of an inch and inflicts minimal tissue damage. A JHP would have knicked a vital and induced a lot more tissue damage/pain on its way there. Here, a JHP is better than a FMJ
2) JHP round passes through arm and into COM, but stops 1" short of vitals because it expanded too much and lost penetration going through the arm. Here an FMJ is better, as it would have penetrated all the way to a vital organ.
3) A round passes through arm and continues on its way, hitting nothing else. An FMJ would leave 2 small holes in the arm, minimal tissue damage, and the guy may even still have use of that arm. A JHP would put one small hole in the front and a larger hole through the back, and inflict more damage. If you hit the bone FMJ and JHP would be equal.
IMHO, (1) is slightly more likely than (2), that's all. (3) is just as likely to occur with either choice, and in that event I'd prefer JHP. So for me, I give the edge to JHP. You guys can load what you want. Let the OP read and research and think about it as well, and come to a conclusion.
Other than the Miami shootout where a 9mm round went through just about every arm muscle there is AND the ribcage AND lung and stopped short of the heart by an inch, I don't think (2) happens very often. OTOH, I always hear of people surviving gunshot wounds because the bullet missed the heart by 1/8" or the spine by 1/16" and people call it a miracle, and I just think, they are lucky it was an FMJ.
Here's 3 scenarios:
1) FMJ round unobstructed to COM, but misses vitals/CNS by fraction of an inch and inflicts minimal tissue damage. A JHP would have knicked a vital and induced a lot more tissue damage/pain on its way there. Here, a JHP is better than a FMJ
2) JHP round passes through arm and into COM, but stops 1" short of vitals because it expanded too much and lost penetration going through the arm. Here an FMJ is better, as it would have penetrated all the way to a vital organ.
3) A round passes through arm and continues on its way, hitting nothing else. An FMJ would leave 2 small holes in the arm, minimal tissue damage, and the guy may even still have use of that arm. A JHP would put one small hole in the front and a larger hole through the back, and inflict more damage. If you hit the bone FMJ and JHP would be equal.
IMHO, (1) is slightly more likely than (2), that's all. (3) is just as likely to occur with either choice, and in that event I'd prefer JHP. So for me, I give the edge to JHP. You guys can load what you want. Let the OP read and research and think about it as well, and come to a conclusion.
Other than the Miami shootout where a 9mm round went through just about every arm muscle there is AND the ribcage AND lung and stopped short of the heart by an inch, I don't think (2) happens very often. OTOH, I always hear of people surviving gunshot wounds because the bullet missed the heart by 1/8" or the spine by 1/16" and people call it a miracle, and I just think, they are lucky it was an FMJ.
briantf
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>>>
IMO sub 9mm calibers are FMJ only propositions.
>>>
Yep, I switched from Hornady XTP to Winchster 95 gr FMJ-TC back about 8 years ago. I remember when TC bullet designs were the hot stuff back in the mid-80's, I reloaded a lot of 200 gr 45 ACP FMJ-TC. The pilots at Lemoore were rumored to be carrying TC style bullets in their survival kits, "legal" FMJ but with better results. Funny how much Elmer Keith influences us today.
Anwyay, I never had anything but FLAWLESS performance with Hornady XTP in my 380 pistol (tiny AMT) although I've consistently had issues with S&B RN. The Winchester has been perfect as well. ~4 mos ago picked up some Hornady Critical Defense in 38 Spl, 9mm and 380 ACP. Seems to have the same profile as XTP but with that plug, so I validated a mag and switched. My 9mm pocket gun uses this as well, my 115 gr XTP handloads are grease through a goose, as have been the CD rounds, so I'm happy with that.
I'm keeping my GDHP for 357 SIG and 45 ACP - no reason to change, and good reasons not to. However, I think Hornady is on to something that Federal missed out with on their EFMJ's, and we'll see other entries of similar type soon.
Regards,
Brian in CA
PS 380 sucks in a defensive pistol, but it fits in a smaller pistol than ANY 9mm, and it's better than a glare and some harsh words in a gun fight.
IMO sub 9mm calibers are FMJ only propositions.
>>>
Yep, I switched from Hornady XTP to Winchster 95 gr FMJ-TC back about 8 years ago. I remember when TC bullet designs were the hot stuff back in the mid-80's, I reloaded a lot of 200 gr 45 ACP FMJ-TC. The pilots at Lemoore were rumored to be carrying TC style bullets in their survival kits, "legal" FMJ but with better results. Funny how much Elmer Keith influences us today.
Anwyay, I never had anything but FLAWLESS performance with Hornady XTP in my 380 pistol (tiny AMT) although I've consistently had issues with S&B RN. The Winchester has been perfect as well. ~4 mos ago picked up some Hornady Critical Defense in 38 Spl, 9mm and 380 ACP. Seems to have the same profile as XTP but with that plug, so I validated a mag and switched. My 9mm pocket gun uses this as well, my 115 gr XTP handloads are grease through a goose, as have been the CD rounds, so I'm happy with that.
I'm keeping my GDHP for 357 SIG and 45 ACP - no reason to change, and good reasons not to. However, I think Hornady is on to something that Federal missed out with on their EFMJ's, and we'll see other entries of similar type soon.
Regards,
Brian in CA
PS 380 sucks in a defensive pistol, but it fits in a smaller pistol than ANY 9mm, and it's better than a glare and some harsh words in a gun fight.
After shooting loads of commercial 380 ammo, I have to say that Buffalo Bore (pretty much anything they make for 380) is in my opinion the way to go. It really turns your pocket pistol into a real defensive weapon.
I only carry the FMJ type ammo so as to give the greatest cycling reliability. I have not had too many problems with hollowpoint products but some pistols really don't like them, and if your pistol is dry and has dust and lint in it you will really increase the likelyhood of cycle failure.
Corbon ammo is extremely good as well. Their higher velocity offerings are well made and both hardball and hollowpoint seem to cycle reliably. They offer ammo with much increased impact energy than standard ammo, but not quite the punch that Buffalo Bore has.
I've not tried Double-Tap stuff, but my friends really speak highly of it.
I only carry the FMJ type ammo so as to give the greatest cycling reliability. I have not had too many problems with hollowpoint products but some pistols really don't like them, and if your pistol is dry and has dust and lint in it you will really increase the likelyhood of cycle failure.
Corbon ammo is extremely good as well. Their higher velocity offerings are well made and both hardball and hollowpoint seem to cycle reliably. They offer ammo with much increased impact energy than standard ammo, but not quite the punch that Buffalo Bore has.
I've not tried Double-Tap stuff, but my friends really speak highly of it.
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